File talk:Paleo-Balkan languages in Eastern Europe between 5th and 1st century BC - Spanish and English.png

Questions and issues

First of, this is quite a nice map! Cool work I have a few questions:

• What is the source for the map? It would be important to note it in the image description (author, book, year, page). See an example: File:Map of Balkans linguistic groups late 3rd millenium BC, according to Georgiev.png
• What period does it cover? I assume 4th-3rd century BC, given how deep are the Celts in Transylvania

And a few issues/comments:

• There are many Dacian toponyms in Transylvania as well, this becoming their core area in 2nd century BC - 1st century AD. For example, take a look at this map by linguist Sorin Olteanu File:Teritoriul onomastic al elementului dava - Sorin Olteanu.jpg. His work and the maps under his Toponyms article/PhD thesis are really great, showing up to date research and are hard to find. Especially this one: Linguistic map of the the Balkans, based on the distribution of Thraco-Daco-Moesian place names. Maybe some of this can be incorporated.
• Some of the legend is in English and Spanish, but some just in Spanish. It would be great to have it consistent and/or have two versions of the map, one for each language.
• By the Black Sea, there were also Geto-Dacians and Celts, in the Greek area.
• More maps to look at: Category:Maps of Dacia
• I kind of link all shades of green, showing connections. However it can be somewhat confusing: the green from Armenia is almost like the one from Thrace. Maybe add more colors?

--Codrin.B (talk) 15:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Providing some answers:

• Sources: The Language of the Thracians (Ivan Duridanov)
• Period: People present in the area between 5th century BC and 1st century BC (the map does NOT represent a specific time in that period, is not a map of a real synchronic situation).
• The page of Duridanov explains the criteria for the selection of toponyms.
• It would be great to have a consistent legend, really! I think I lost many time ago the original PDD file por properly editing each layer (sorry!). --Davius (talk) 22:51, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the answers. I added the information to the image. Would be great if you could find that PDD file! :-) One note is that Duridanov did great work, but is becoming outdated. Researchers like Sorin Olteanu are bringing more evidence and knowledge and would be great to incorporate it in updated or newer maps. Regards.--Codrin.B (talk) 17:39, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I discovered a recent Romanian derivation of this map File:LimbiTraco-Ilire.jpg that updates the Dacian toponyms coverage, which is pretty much what I talking about ; I added derivation information and linked the too maps. It would be great to create separate Spanish and English versions based on the combined maps.--Codrin.B (talk) 20:02, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

(since :

• Detschew D. 1957: Die thrakischen Sprachreste, Wien,
• Georgiev V. 1964: Die dakischen Glossen und ihre Bedeutung zum Studium der dakischen Sprache, in: Linguistique balkanique

8, 5–14,

• Georgiev V. 1983: Thrakisch und Dakisch, in: Temporini H., Haase W.(Hg.): Aufstieg und Niedergang der römischen Welt II/2,

1148–1194, Berlin,

• Kretschmer P. 1896: Einleitung in die Geschichte der griechischen Sprache Göttingen,
• Mărghitan L., 1981: Civilizaţia geto-dacilor, Ed.: Ion Creangă, Bucharest,
• Russu I. I. 1969: Die Sprache der Thrako-Daker Bukarest, and :
• Vraciu A. 1980: Limba daco-geţilor, Timişoara ;

see also maps on : <http://www.google.fr/imgres?q=Toponyme+Dacice&um=1&hl=fr&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:fr:official&biw=1343&bih=769&tbm=isch&tbnid=_LESUG0uIpmgVM:&imgrefurl=http://soltdm.com/geo/arts/categs/categs.htm&docid=tx-GxF4KE-h9OM&itg=1&imgurl=http://soltdm.com/geo/arts/categs/dava.jpg&w=498&h=516&ei=4mfwTo2EHtG5hAf4ysDHAQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1083&vpy=178&dur=2549&hovh=229&hovw=221&tx=145&ty=116&sig=104949069746891534530&page=1&tbnh=115&tbnw=111&start=0&ndsp=29&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0> and a thesis on: <http://soltdm.com/geo/arts/categs/categs.htm>), Just a little comment : the works about it, are not without links with some POVs & thesis from Bulgaria, Hungary-Germany, and Romania :

• the first ones (principally Bulgarian and Serbian) try to demonstrate a very low romanisation of a very few Thraco-Illyrians before the slavisation of the Balkans, or even to denies the process of Thracians romanisation in the south of Danube, and studies the dacian toponymes in this area for explain their persistance under slavic forms ;
• the second ones (principally Hungarian, German and Austrian) try to demonstrate a proto-roman ethnogenesis on a thraco-illyrian substrat in the actual south-Serbia (Dacia aureliana) and neglect the dacian toponymes in Transylvania and Oltenia, but studies with care the process of Thracians romanisation in the south of Danube ;
• the third ones (principally Romanian and Moldovan) try to demonstrate a proto-roman ethnogenesis on a dacian substrat in the actual Transylvania and Oltenia (Dacia trajana), studies & cited the dacian toponymes in Transylvania, Oltenia and Moldavia/Moldova, but neglect the process of Thracians romanisation in the south of Danube.

So, we must watch all this sources (and their maps) for an overview. --Spiridon Ion Cepleanu (talk) 11:30, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

This is a good list of sources. If you used any of them on the Romanian version of this map (or if you intend to in the future), please mention them in the Source field of that image's description. See also File talk:Paleo-Balkan languages in Eastern Europe between 5th and 1st century BC - Romanian.jpg. Thanks. --Codrin.B (talk) 22:15, 21 December 2011 (UTC)