Template talk:Information
Latest comment: 1 month ago by RoyZuo in topic WYSIWYG
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Author
Distinction with uploader
@Jarekt: You specified in the Author field's description that:
This field should not be used to specify the uploader of the image, who is not the author, but who only found or scanned the image
If so, what should that field contain for scanned images? Chealer (talk) 02:45, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Chealer, in case of scanned images, the author is the person who created that image. If you are scanning photographs that would be the photographer. If you are scanning text of the book that would be the author of the book. If you are scanning a painting that would be the painter. --Jarekt (talk) 03:59, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Jarekt: The parameter's description specifically indicates that it should indicate the "Original author of the file". If I scan a photograph taken by Bob in 1919, and Bob died in 1920, surely Bob isn't the author of the file. So if it's neither Bob nor me, then who is that author? Chealer (talk) 04:08, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Chealer, In such a case Bob is the original author of the content of that file and his heirs are/were the copyright holders. If it is no longer under copyrights, than the license template should indicate why. For example if Bob is from Europe than one could use {{PD-old-auto|deathyear=1920}}. --Jarekt (talk) 04:26, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks @Jarekt, but the question is about the Information template's Author field. Who do you think the Author field should mention in a scenario like the one I described? Chealer (talk) 12:31, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Chealer, I do not understand the confusion. If Bob is the photographer who took the photo in 1919, than he is the "author", and the copyright holder. Scanning, printing, Xerox copying of that photograph does not change that, and does not make people creating the copies the authors. Even photographing other people photographs, if the majority of the photo is the original photograph, does not make the new photographers the co-authors. Same like scanning the print of Mona Lisa does not change the fact that Leonardo da Vinci is the author of the painting and of the file depicting the painting. If I scan and upload Mona Lisa that makes me the uploader, or user who scanned it, but does not make me the author. One way to think about it, is that the author is the person who holds or was holding the copyrights to the objects and now the file, and the license template should reflect status of those copyrights. --Jarekt (talk) 17:33, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Jarekt: I don't disagree with that, but I still don't understand what should be indicated in the Author field, which should indicate the "Original author of the file". If I scanned Bob's photograph in 2020, would you say that Bob is the original author of the file, even though he died a century before the file was created? Chealer (talk) 02:51, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Chealer, Yes I would say he is the only author of the content of that file. The word "original" I added to help with this exact confusion, trying to distinguish from a "secondary" or "derivative" authors. I understand that the photograph was digitized in 2020 and the file or its digital form did not exist before the scan, so you are the creator and uploader of the file. However the author field is for the creator of the original content being digitized. It gets more tricky with photographs of sculptures, as both the photographer and the sculptor might hold the copyrights. We use {{Art photo}} template for that. I wonder if the wording can be tweaked to minimize the confusion and still is correct for all the content people use this template for. --Jarekt (talk) 00:02, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Jarekt: Right, I would agree that Bob may be the author of the content of the file. But as emphasized above, according to the Author field's description, it should contain an author of the file. Yes, I agree that if I show a picture of a sculpture and ask people who is the author, some will say the sculptor, some the photographer, and many will just not be sure. So there is definitely room for ambiguity, but in this case the description does specify that it's referring to an author of the file. For me, it makes no sense to consider Bob as the author of something which didn't exist when he died. If we leave copyright aside for now, if I scanned a photo taken by Bob, who do you think is/are the author(s) of the resulting file? Chealer (talk) 01:36, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Chealer, In case of the scanned documents the author is the creator of the original analog content. If you believe that the documentation does not make it clear, please propose how to change it. Also it does not make sense to set copyrights aside, as one of the main use of the author field is to identify the current or past copyright holders, so the name(s) in that field should match the license templates. --Jarekt (talk) 14:09, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Jarekt: I wouldn't describe the issue as a lack of clarity. For me, it's a matter of coherence. I hope to propose a change, but that would be easier once the problem with the current situation is clearly understood. You must be right that setting copyrights aside makes no sense, but I only asked to do that for now, at this stage.
- So to be clear, if I understand your answer correctly, you consider that if I scan a photograph taken by Bob, the single author of the file I thereby create is Bob? Chealer (talk) 00:16, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Chealer, Yes, Bob is the only author of the photograph and it's digital version - the file. People digitizing the photograph, uploading it, or even owning the photograph are not the authors. --Jarekt (talk) 07:19, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. Most people don't think that the author can differ from the creator, but I'll see what we can do to fix this. --Chealer (talk) 17:59, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Would it make sense to change the wording to "Original author of the file contents" or "Original author of the creative material"? Thisisnotatest (talk) 06:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
- Hi @Thisisnotatest: I have no idea if that's what Slomox meant to say, but the latter would definitely make sense. Perhaps "For scanned images, the author of the original (physical) image". --Chealer (talk) 12:37, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
- Would it make sense to change the wording to "Original author of the file contents" or "Original author of the creative material"? Thisisnotatest (talk) 06:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. Most people don't think that the author can differ from the creator, but I'll see what we can do to fix this. --Chealer (talk) 17:59, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Chealer, Yes, Bob is the only author of the photograph and it's digital version - the file. People digitizing the photograph, uploading it, or even owning the photograph are not the authors. --Jarekt (talk) 07:19, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Chealer, In case of the scanned documents the author is the creator of the original analog content. If you believe that the documentation does not make it clear, please propose how to change it. Also it does not make sense to set copyrights aside, as one of the main use of the author field is to identify the current or past copyright holders, so the name(s) in that field should match the license templates. --Jarekt (talk) 14:09, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Jarekt: Right, I would agree that Bob may be the author of the content of the file. But as emphasized above, according to the Author field's description, it should contain an author of the file. Yes, I agree that if I show a picture of a sculpture and ask people who is the author, some will say the sculptor, some the photographer, and many will just not be sure. So there is definitely room for ambiguity, but in this case the description does specify that it's referring to an author of the file. For me, it makes no sense to consider Bob as the author of something which didn't exist when he died. If we leave copyright aside for now, if I scanned a photo taken by Bob, who do you think is/are the author(s) of the resulting file? Chealer (talk) 01:36, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Chealer, Yes I would say he is the only author of the content of that file. The word "original" I added to help with this exact confusion, trying to distinguish from a "secondary" or "derivative" authors. I understand that the photograph was digitized in 2020 and the file or its digital form did not exist before the scan, so you are the creator and uploader of the file. However the author field is for the creator of the original content being digitized. It gets more tricky with photographs of sculptures, as both the photographer and the sculptor might hold the copyrights. We use {{Art photo}} template for that. I wonder if the wording can be tweaked to minimize the confusion and still is correct for all the content people use this template for. --Jarekt (talk) 00:02, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Jarekt: I don't disagree with that, but I still don't understand what should be indicated in the Author field, which should indicate the "Original author of the file". If I scanned Bob's photograph in 2020, would you say that Bob is the original author of the file, even though he died a century before the file was created? Chealer (talk) 02:51, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- Chealer, I do not understand the confusion. If Bob is the photographer who took the photo in 1919, than he is the "author", and the copyright holder. Scanning, printing, Xerox copying of that photograph does not change that, and does not make people creating the copies the authors. Even photographing other people photographs, if the majority of the photo is the original photograph, does not make the new photographers the co-authors. Same like scanning the print of Mona Lisa does not change the fact that Leonardo da Vinci is the author of the painting and of the file depicting the painting. If I scan and upload Mona Lisa that makes me the uploader, or user who scanned it, but does not make me the author. One way to think about it, is that the author is the person who holds or was holding the copyrights to the objects and now the file, and the license template should reflect status of those copyrights. --Jarekt (talk) 17:33, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks @Jarekt, but the question is about the Information template's Author field. Who do you think the Author field should mention in a scenario like the one I described? Chealer (talk) 12:31, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Chealer, In such a case Bob is the original author of the content of that file and his heirs are/were the copyright holders. If it is no longer under copyrights, than the license template should indicate why. For example if Bob is from Europe than one could use {{PD-old-auto|deathyear=1920}}. --Jarekt (talk) 04:26, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Jarekt: The parameter's description specifically indicates that it should indicate the "Original author of the file". If I scan a photograph taken by Bob in 1919, and Bob died in 1920, surely Bob isn't the author of the file. So if it's neither Bob nor me, then who is that author? Chealer (talk) 04:08, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Who are a file's authors?
@Slomox: According to your description of the Author parameter, it should contain the "original author of the file". Can you clarify what you meant by that, or tell us if how this has since been interpreted is coherent with your understanding? Notably, as can be seen in the previous subsection, it has been interpreted that if Alice scans a paper print of something photographed by Bob, her file's author would differ from its creator (Bob vs Alice). Is this consistent with the terminology you are using? --Chealer (talk) 17:59, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
Accessible description field needed
There needs to be a way to enter an accessible text description of all images. I suggest adding an "Accessible description" parameter to the template. Thisisnotatest (talk) 09:49, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Thisisnotatest: it's not clear to me what the problem is you are trying to solve. Can you elaborate? Multichill (talk) 15:45, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Multichill: Sorry, I didn't see the ping and never responded to this and it got archived. Responding now. The idea of adding an accessible text description to all images would be that whenever an image from Wikimedia Commons was included on a page in another wiki, say, English Wikipedia, the image would have accessible text for screen readers on that website. I recognize this might not be as simple as I might have originally thought. For example, if an image with English alternative text were included in a German wiki, it would have the wrong language. So there might be a need for alternative text fields for each language. Thisisnotatest (talk) 04:26, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Source: what to do with files which disappeared?
This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Chealer (talk) 22:44, 5 November 2024 (UTC) To be concrete, File:Nutella logo.svg was created from File:Nutella logo - 1964-1970.svg, which was removed by Missvain since the former superseded it.
What should be done in such cases where Source points to removed files? Since the original page is deleted, we don't have access to the original's Source field. Chealer (talk) 16:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Chealer The source statement is correct this way. However it would be good if an admin looked at the deleted page and retrieved the source of that file, so that this can be logged in addition to the fact that this version was based on File:Nutella logo - 1964-1970.svg —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:26, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- Well, it might be "correct" in the sense that it's not wrong, but it's not correct to have broken links, nor to fail to specify the (real) source. @Missvain can some admins really look at the deleted page? Chealer (talk) 14:01, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Chealer and @TheDJ, unfortunately, the deleted file only has "source=Nutella" and "author=Ferrero", pretty much the same as the current file. — Huntster (t @ c) 16:43, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks @Huntster, I corrected the file. I guess the answer to this question would then be to ask admins on the Talk page of files with such broken links to provide that information so it can be "restored"? Chealer (talk) 19:56, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- It would probably be difficult to get such a thing codified, given the volumes of material that are processed daily. The best solution for now is to ask the deleting admin to provide the information on a case by case basis, and if they fail to follow up, ask more broadly. — Huntster (t @ c) 20:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- I've added a tip about such cases to the documentation. In case someone knows how to prevent the broken link I added as example from displaying red, please let me know (the box seems too prominent and I didn't find how to make it collapsed). --Chealer (talk) 22:44, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- It would probably be difficult to get such a thing codified, given the volumes of material that are processed daily. The best solution for now is to ask the deleting admin to provide the information on a case by case basis, and if they fail to follow up, ask more broadly. — Huntster (t @ c) 20:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks @Huntster, I corrected the file. I guess the answer to this question would then be to ask admins on the Talk page of files with such broken links to provide that information so it can be "restored"? Chealer (talk) 19:56, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Chealer and @TheDJ, unfortunately, the deleted file only has "source=Nutella" and "author=Ferrero", pretty much the same as the current file. — Huntster (t @ c) 16:43, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- Well, it might be "correct" in the sense that it's not wrong, but it's not correct to have broken links, nor to fail to specify the (real) source. @Missvain can some admins really look at the deleted page? Chealer (talk) 14:01, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
WYSIWYG
It should be WYSIWYG. https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Edinburgh_Place_Ferry_Pier_and_Hong_Kong_Island_skyline_at_night_2004.jpg&diff=prev&oldid=962442971 leaving 1 line between 2 lines should show me
Hong Kong La foto è stata scattata il 31 agosto 2004.
instead of a single line
Hong Kong La foto è stata scattata il 31 agosto 2004.
this is something lone overdue! RoyZuo (talk) 20:28, 27 November 2024 (UTC)