Talk:.41 Swiss

E pluribus ammo

10.4×38mm Swiss Rimfire should be merged here because it's lacking references & the page title is wrong (it means rimmed, not rimfire, & it's 10.4x38mmR). TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 03:35, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

• The original name appears to be 10.4×38mm Swiss Rimfire. Per this article, the "official" name is 10.4×38mm Swiss Rimfire. So the merged article ought to end up under that name. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:20, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

As already noted, that title is incorrect, & per Commonname, .41 Swiss would seem to be the title of choice. If they should be merged as 10.4x38mmR, I wouldn't beef. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 11:02, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

I'd be happy with 10.4x38mmR (or anything similar - is "Swiss" worth inclusion?) I think COMMONNAME here would still apply to its original name in Switzerland, it doesn't seem to have been popular enough in the US to over-ride this.

Is R for Rimmed or for Rimfire though? Why label a cartridge as "rimmed"? Everything was, back then. Rimfire was somewhat unusual for rifles though, and this was a major difference between Swiss and Italian rifles?

What was .41 Swiss anyway (the centrefire version at least)? If this was centrefire, was it for the Italian Vetterli (centrefire) rather than the original Swiss (rimfire) rifle? That's a slightly different cartridge, although close enough that still calling it ".41" is credible. Were these for converted Swiss rifles, or for Italian rifles?

I've no sources for any of this. The ancient rifle shooters I've asked have vaguely heard of the Vetterli as a historical thing, but no-one has one. The deer shooters (I only know one UK deer shooter) wouldn't even think about it, as most of our deer are shot at long range on open moorland, with field artillery, rather than by close-up stalking in woodland. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:10, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

♠"is "Swiss" worth inclusion" If it's 10.4mm etc, there's an option to stop there, or go all the way to the official Swiss Army designation (which Barnes' 'graph on it does); that seems a bit overkill, but it's the official name, so... In that event, "Swiss" falls out by default.

♠"Is R for Rimmed or for Rimfire"? It's rimmed. There are dozens of rounds, all centerfire, with that suffix, currently for sale in Europe. It's to distinguish from semi-rimmed & rimless cases (which, AIUI, are really just names for the designs, not factually accurate).

♠"What was .41 Swiss anyway"? My understanding is, it covers both the RF & CF variant, just as the 10.4x38mmR does; they'd be dabbed "(rimfire)" & "(centerfire)". The only difference is the name.

♠Apparently, this round was only used in the Swiss Vetterlis (per the link); Barnes says its a bit marginal for deer, so no wonder it's not in open-field use much. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 06:40 & 06:42, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

So if it's R for Rimmed, was that an original name, or a later suffix? My point is that it seems odd to label a cartridge as "rimmed" at a time when all cartridges were.

What shoots 1960s .41 Swiss centrefire? A Swiss Vetterli, modified, or an Italian Vetterli? Andy Dingley (talk) 09:30, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

♠"was that an original name" Maybe not, but that's what it's called now; my source doesn't say.

♠"What shoots 1960s .41 Swiss centrefire?" No idea. I imagine there were rifles originally chambered for it after the CF version was introduced, so there may be original Swiss Army Vetterlis; some shooters may just like the ballistics, & have their Winchester 94s or Weatherby Mark Vs or SAKOs chambered for it, IDK.

♠These points really aren't about a merge, however, are they? TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 09:27, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

If .41 Swiss is a different cartridge though, and only usable through Italian centrefire Vetterlis, then it's a bad name for the original Swiss rifles. It wouldn't be the first time that a calibre name means the complete opposite of what it appears to. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:00, 6 October 2017 (UTC)