Talk:Battle of Lumë

Name

Battle of Lumë vs Uprising of Lumë. Any thoughts which title fits best? --Mondiad (talk) 22:02, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

I guess this topic is closed.--Mondiad (talk) 03:25, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Forgot about this bit. I would say Uprising of Lumë is best as Elsie uses similar terminology and the duration of events went over a period of months, not a day, days, week, etc.Resnjari (talk) 04:30, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Supposed or Actual Albanian resistance or Ottoman support around Ioannina

I wonder what's the reason to insist on science fiction like this one. Nevertheless disruption has reached a new level with the excuse that there was a supposed resistance in Ioannina[[1]], while the only Albanian presence in the region was the Ottoman support during the First Balkan War, a fact pointed by Rsnjari quite clear.08:18, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Not "Supposed". The Hall reference which you placed and i then had to add the in line (for further information of course with page number too) states that apart from Ottoman troops (which where mainly Albanian) they where helped by local Albanians from around Ioannina (due to the sizable Albanian population of its hinterland as per Hall) and Hall states that was the reason why Greeks could not break the Ottoman resistance to Greek incursion in the region. Hall.p.63-64.> Greek besiegers were unable to surround Janina and thus could not cut it off from its Albanian hinterland. Here, as at Scutari, the local Albanian population in the countryside by and large supported the Ottoman defenders. By mid—December, the Ottomans had 35,000 soldiers confronting only 25.000 Greeks. Ottoman soldiers retreating from Macedonia and Albanian irregulars reinforced the defenders of Janina.

Maybe some more information about local Albanians of the Ioannina hinterland needs to be added to the article to give more information here, so as to clear up any issues, even though this article is about Luma, and the Serbian massacres of Albanian Muslims who dared resist their incursions in the area. Your thoughts ?Resnjari (talk) 08:57, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Historical fact as you point above was the Albanian support to the Ottoman army. On the other hand the so-called ressitance doesn't apply in this case, unless you have evidence that Hall doesn't meet wp:RS.Alexikoua (talk) 09:23, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

About additional info, apart from irregular support the Albanian provisional government from Vlore provided logistics support to the Ottoman army. This maybe needs to be added too.Alexikoua (talk) 09:27, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Probabaly and why that was done too due to national survival purposes and a comparison sentences about Greek army massacres in the area of Muslim Albanians. Apart from that, its all in order. Ottoman army units fighting in Ioannina where mainly Albanians and they were assisted by local Albanians who lived around Ioannina and its hinterland. As long as that is stated, its ok. In essence, it was Albanian resistance to Greek incursions. Local Albanians supported the Ottoman army due to troops and local populations being the same people and were not in favour of the incoming army or state who came to claim the area for themselves. Also during the Balkan wars, due to this mix those for the Albanian movement and those for the Ottoman army and elites due to shared Albanian ethnicity, the lines where blurred as to where Ottoman resistance started and where Albanian resistance ended in the area. For example most of the Albanian elite who where part of the Ottoman administration declared Independence only after the Ottomans where long gone and the risk of becoming part of a greater Serbia or Greece was immanent and the issue of survival important. The Ottomans were not the threat that Albanian nationalism always pathetically advocates as its foundational mantra and nor was it the view of those declaring independence. Even in personal narratives retained in families this was the case between Ottomanism and Albanian identity. One branch of my family where landowners in Prespa. From them emerged many religious figures(a tradition still continued in my family with many imams currently in area being from my family. i.e Muharrem Shema (Šemovski) in Carev Dvor, Sadik, Demo's son in Grnčari, and my cousin Qemal here at the Reservoir Albanian mosque in Melbourne) and many military people who served in Yemen etc. My family was pivitol in the early days in sending guns, money and rallying men to Niyaz Bey's cause in Prespa that made the young Turk revolution happen, deposed Sultan Hamid II and placed the Young Turk government in power). Like with everything it had to begin somewhere. Had my family not done that most likely the Young Turk revolution would not have happened (it started in Prespa) and no Young Turk government. My family also had a strong Albanian identity where involved with the Albanian movement. In the end both the Ottoman Muslim world and the Albanian one were intertwined that created Ottoman patriots and Albanian ones too as those of my family with many times being one and the same. However regarding the Ioannina stuff, I can go on with this if you want and if you want sources i will be more than forthcoming. Like i said as long as the sentence maintains the adjustments i made, its ok.Resnjari (talk) 09:49, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

User:Alexikoua is kindly asked to read the context of the sentence. It is not too much content to read. The sentence is about the significance of the event in terms of timeline, not about "who contributed where". Even the Battle of Bitola or the Siege of Shkodra was handled by the Ottomans. That's no need to add so much material to prove the Albanian contributed to the Siege of Yannina since there is no need for that. Whoever wants to see particular contributes can jump to the respective article. --Mondiad (talk) 13:04, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Then you are twice wrong since you admit that in Skhoder the "ressistance" was in fact "Ottoman support. For future reference if some Albanians supported one side in a conflict that's not called "resistance" in military warfare. Mondiad you are kindly asked to respect Renjari's addition and avoid further disruption.Alexikoua (talk) 16:27, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

See, during the Balkan wars for Albanians it was both situations. The Empire was seen as the protector of Albanians and loss of such a protective overlay resulted also in those forces and troops emerging (within those wars) and forming into the new Albanian government's forces as they rallied to its banner. If we need to elaborate on this then fine. It was both Ottoman and Albanian resistance at the same time as forces fighting in the area where mainly Albanian.Resnjari (talk) 16:31, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Actually the Ottoman forces were in huge numbers in Epirus, in terms of armed troops. An entire Corps defended Ioannina and a well structured fortication system with several artilerry batteries defended the passes to Ioannina. In our case "defence" is more appropriate than "ressistance" (there isn'ta case of occupation, but a conflict of XvsY: Attacker vs defender). Also note that after the Albanian declaration of November 28 several Albanian soldiers of the Ottoman army left their posts for Albania.Alexikoua (talk) 16:42, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

It wasn't several, the numbers where higher, plus irregular forces like the Kacaks and other Albanian guerrilla bands supporting the Ottomans(as sizable numbers where Albanians), though espousing Albanian resistance (with national Albanian awakening ideals, i.e the Topullis etc) in their own right. The Greek army was seen as a occupier by the Muslim population by the way and not a "liberator". Resistance by these Ottoman troops is the right word and as Hall notes Albanians from Ioannina's hinterland gave support to them. We can use more sources if you so wish. Albanian Muslims saw the Ottoman Empire as its protector. Once that reality was obliterated, only an independent Albania was the choice due to "liberation" by Serbia and Greece. My point is we can turn this article about Luma and the Albanian resistance to the Serbs and the Serbian massacres of Albanian Muslims that followed into one about Ioannina if you so wish. I am more than up for it.Resnjari (talk) 17:07, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

The Albanian support in numbers was just a very tiny one compared to the Turkish regular forces (the Topullis were active in Korce area that time by the way, i.e. further north from Ioannina) I'm not against expansion about Ioannina "if" this is really the core of this article, which I doubt. Albania during the Balkan Wars maybe the right one instead.Alexikoua (talk) 17:42, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Well half the stuff on the talkpage is about Ioannina so i thought that if thats the road we are going to take, so be it. This article is about Luma, the resistance to Serb forces and the massacres that were done by such forces. I prefer to stick to Luma, but for those that want to drift about what constitutes Albanian resistance, i am more than happy to go down that path too.Resnjari (talk) 18:26, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

My concern was focused on the specific part of the after match section that terms the war developments of the Epirus front of BWI as Albanian resistance. Obviously the core of this article isn't this front.Alexikoua (talk) 19:51, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Ok, understood. Anyway during this era of the Balkan Wars the end of the Ottomans and the full emergence of the Albanian movement is a tricky affair to untangle. Even during the Young Turk revolution, the Young Turk movement was founded by Albanians and a cosmopolitan and constitutional movement (i.e Ibrahim Temo etc etc) and its other recruits in later times they became obsolete and eventually after the revolution of 1908, the deranged and after 1912 the genocidal types took over. There is a book on the complex world of Ottoman Albanian elites and Muslim Albanians and the balencing act/lyalties etc regarding the Ottoman socio-cultural administrative structures and identity etc etc. For more if interested see: Gawrych, George (2006). The crescent and the eagle: Ottoman rule, Islam and the Albanians, 1874-1913. IB Tauris.Resnjari (talk) 14:49, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 25 April 2021

109.189.167.46 (talk) 15:43, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done empty request. Shellwood (talk) 15:59, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Folkloric estimates

@Bashkim Qafderri: Your new addition was actually sourced, namely in the article by Onuzi. Just noticed it. But nonetheless it shouldn't be added in the infobox, just like the other folkloric estimates are excluded, namely the strength of the Serbian forces at 16,000. Demetrios1993 (talk) 23:46, 1 May 2021 (UTC)