Talk:Bekir Fikri

Ethnic origins

@Resnjari: I can not understand his ethnic origin as it is explained in the article. Was he of Albanian, Greek or Turkish origin. I this source he is described as of Greek descent. Jingiby (talk) 11:14, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Jingiby his background is a bit complex. But the 4 sources that do mention it say these things:

• Gostentschnigg. p.575 [1] "'Der jungtürkische Major Beqir Grebeneja, ebenfalls albanischer Herkunft" (The Young Turk Major Beqir Grebeneja, also of Albanian origin);
• Strauss. p. 132. [2] "Among these Muslims we find Bekir Fikri of Grebena in Western Macedonia (1882-1914), whose mother tongue was Greek (ethnically he belonged to the Valachades)".
• Metoki. p. 12. [3] "Ο Βεκιρ Φικρι ηταν ελληνοφωνος μουσουλμανος, με καταγωγη απο το Τσουρηλι του καζα Γρεβενων" (Bekir Fikri was a Greek-speaking Muslim, originally from Tsourli of the kaza of Grevena)
• Hanioglu p. 452. [4] "Captain Bekir Fikri was from an mixed Albanian-Turkish family and was trilingual, fluent in Albanian, Turkish and Greek."

Fikri was of Albanian origin and born to a Turkish-Albanian family, while he himself was a Valahades (a Greek speaking Muslim) in terms of ethnic belonging. On this latter part he was born in an area where the Valahades lived and from what i have read so far he was close with that community. Its the Balkans, some figures have very complex multiethnic backgrounds. With Strauss, the source you cited above he does not refer to him in terms of descent, but Fikri's own belonging to the Valahades. The only source that states origins is Gostentschnigg. Resnjari (talk) 11:51, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Resnjari: As far as I know, his native place was inhabited by Greeks and Valachades, i.e. Greek Muslims. At the end of the 19th century, it was a large mixed populated Muslim-Christian Greek-speaking village. According to Vasil Kanchov's statistics, there lived 400 Valachades (Greek-Muslims), 200 Greek Christians and 40 Gypsies in 1900. According to the statistics of the Greek Consulate in Elasona from 1904, there were 600 Valachades and 400 Greek Christians. In this situation, his ethnic origin is hardly Albanian or Turkish, but probably Greek. Jingiby (talk) 12:11, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Jingiby:, yes the region at the time had Orthodox Greeks and Grecophone Muslims (Valahades never identified themselves as Greeks). In relation to Fikri the sources so far say those things. They do not say he was Greek. That is unanimous, nor do they contradict each other. I don't know any further about Fikri's parents (if i did i would have added that to the article) or to give a definitive answer on that subject, however in general from just reading on Ottoman history, officials were posted all over the empire and families moved. Ethnic identities of families in one place may have meant something else in another as their offspring may have adopted new categories of belonging. This happened a lot in the Balkans and whether that might be his reality who knows but Fikri is by no means an isolated case of complex origins and identities.Resnjari (talk) 12:30, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Resnjari: My opinion is that he was of Greek Muslim origin, but identified himself as an Ottoman (Turk) or simply as part of the Muslim Millet. In his case we have no Albanian or Turkish ethnic connection. Jingiby (talk) 12:48, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Jingiby:, the four sources do not point to millet or identification in terms of Ottoman identity. Gostentschnigg states an Albanian origin, Hanioglu says he came from an Albanian-Turkish family while Metoki and Strauss place Fikri himself as a Grecophone Muslim. None of these contradict in terms of origin, the family and the person. Unless there is scholarship stating a Greek origin, saying that is a personal conclusion. I only go with what the scholarship states.Resnjari (talk) 12:59, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Jingiby:, the article is not about Tsourli. Kanchov mentions nothing about Fikri. Only sources that refer to Fikri are used. As for the rest unless you have come across something that contradicts the scholars and says otherwise please leave that part as it is. Thankyou.Resnjari (talk) 13:27, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Resnjari: The content in the section contradicts itself. How can be he simultaneously from: a) Albanian origin; b) born into a Turkish-Albanian family and c) belonging ethnically to Greek Muslim community. This sounds nonsensical. We have just three different hypotheses. Jingiby (talk) 13:38, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Jingiby:, respectfully i disagree. That is not nonsensical. Each source refers to a different thing. One his origin, two his family and three himself. I can cite multitudes of individuals where similarities of the sort exist (its the Balkans), yet alone communities in countries like Greece. One thing you keep doing is referring to a Greek Muslim community. The scholarship never speaks of Muslim Greeks, not even the Greek sources, but Greek speaking Muslims. The attribution to Fikri belonging to the Valahades community (Grecophone Muslims of the Grevena area) is only to him and not his family or his origin. People of the era felt or joined communities in places they lived. It does not mean that their families or personal origin was from those communities. Unless source(s) outright say he was Greek, or his origin was such then that's different. Until that time its fine as it is.Resnjari (talk) 13:50, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Resnjari: There is a difference. Valachades were just crypto-Christians, i.e. Greek peasants islamicized recently by Ali Pasha during the early 19th century. Check here please. Jingiby (talk) 14:00, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Jingiby:, yes i am aware of how the Valahades came into being. But it was not recent. In that source you gave Clark says that after conversion they where crypto-Christians for possibly a generation. Even he aint sure. By the end of Ottoman rule almost a hundred years had passed and there is no evidence that they were crypto-Christians or identified with Christianity. In that time span at least 3 to 4 generations would have been born. Fikri is toward the end of that time scale. That source by Metoki on the Valahades talks about them maintaining certain Christian traditions (saints days etc), but they identified as Muslims and fought to keep the empire in the region. Some of them fought against the incoming Greek army and local Orthodox Greeks. Greeks of Greece do not view Grecophone Muslims as Greeks: Mackridge, p.65. [5].Resnjari (talk) 14:17, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Fikri's origins are more complex. A person does not have to be born into a community in order to become part of it.Resnjari (talk) 14:18, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Resnjari: I think the case of Vallachades is similar of that of the Suliotes, that were Orthodox Greeks of Albanian origins. Whether Fikri identified himself as Muslim Albanian, either as Muslim Turk, he had Greek Muslim origin. Jingiby (talk) 14:47, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Jingiby:, i don't know if he did have a Grecophone Muslim origin. Scholars don't say this. In fact they say the opposite in term of origin and family being toward the Albanian end. If someone has come across something about his parents it would be a good addition (were they natives of Tsourli or newcomers, or were his grandparents natives or newcomers to the area? Or is Fikri a descendant of both locals and newcomers?). I can only base my comments on scholarship. If you come across something on Fikri your more then welcome to bring it up. I cast the net far and wide to find sources and it was a very hard article to write due to difficulty of accessing scholarship. Overall what i have here is basically it. There might be more who knows. Other editors can pick up from where i left things.Resnjari (talk) 15:00, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Resnjari: It’s worth mentioning that the Greek speaking Muslim communities, which were the majority population at Yanina and Paramythia, and of substantial numbers in Parga and probably Preveza, shared the same route of identity construction, with no evident differentiation between them and their Albanian speaking co-habitants.These last mentioned Muslim communities were in some cases bilingual in Greek and Albanian. For more see the specific chapter “La question de la langue dans quelques villes et bourgades de l’Épire”, in Lambros Baltsiotis, L’albanophonie dans l’État grec. Expansion et déclin des parlers albanais, diplôme de l’EHESS, Paris, 2002, pp. 305-312. Jingiby (talk) 15:23, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Jingiby: lol, i have read Baltsiotis. He has done a lot of good work on Orthodox and Albanian speaking populations in Greece whether about the past or present day. I will say on Grecophone Muslims, in the 19th century unlike other national movements of the Balkans like the Albanian or Bulgarian one, the Greek one did not reach out to Muslims who spoke the same language. Even after the incorporation of the Cretan Muslims and the Valahades in 1912-1913, Greece did not reach out to them. Instead in 1923 they were exchanged. The schism between Orthodox and Muslim Greek speakers ran deep and continues to this day. Neither side views each other as fellow kin or peoples with kindred origins. Its a mutual divorce of sorts.Resnjari (talk) 15:37, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Resnjari: You are right, but we discus about his ethnic origins, not about his national identification or religious denomination. Many people of Muslim Albanian, Muslim Greek, Muslim Bulgarian etc. origins identified themselves during 19th century simply as Muslims and today are Muslim Turks, but their forefathers identified themselves simply as Christians. Jingiby (talk) 15:56, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Jingiby:, i don't think that identification with Christianity was that clear cut either. If it was, much of the Balkans would not have become Muslim. Religion was just as fluid if not more so than ethnic identity or even language at certain points. With Fikri the scholars are clear about his origin and his family. Then they discuss the person of Fikri himself. None of them contradict. People in the Balkans with 3 generations have had multiple origins and identity changes or assimilation. The tag for a few weeks to see if anything comes up after that if no one comes with any new sources i'll remove it.Resnjari (talk) 16:14, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Resnjari: According to Apostolos E. Vakalopoulos and his History of Macedonia, 1354-1833, p. 346: The most extensive conversions were those of the so-called Vallahades inhabiting a large number of Greek villages in Western Macedonia. Their native tongue provides irrefutable proof of their Greek ancestry. Right up to recent times these people retained the old names for the heights in the region, in contrast with the Turkish colonists of Anatolian origin who had settled to the east of the Vallahades and had given the surrounding mountains Turkish names. Indeed, there were wayside chapels scattered among the hills which continued to be entrusted to the Vallahades womenfolk and kept in good repair against the ravages of time... They kept the typically Greek custom on New Year's Day, namely the cutting of the New Year cake (βασιλόπιτα) with the coin hidden inside it. As with the Christian Greeks, the one who found the coin was held to be the luckiest of the year... Nor did Easter-tide, the most important Orthodox feast of all, go by without some participation on the part of the Vallahades etc. I.e. this people were of Greek ethnic origin. I think the text remains contradicting and it is practically impossible to be of Turko-Albanian and Greek-Vallachidian origin simultaneously. We have two versions about Fikri's origin. Jingiby (talk) 09:56, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

@Jingiby:, there is no confusion. Vakalopoulos discusses the Valahades, not Fikri himself. Your still mixing two things into one. Scholars with regard to Fikri state an Albanian origin, it is only himself that they say he was a Valahades. A similar example that comes to mind is the Arvanites, of Albanian origin, but became Greek. There is a plethora of individuals and communities in the Balkans that have certain origins and have joined other groups and communities and Fikri is by no means an isolated case. In all due respect unless you find scholarship about Fikri himself, its pointless to keep going around in circles like this. Best.Resnjari (talk) 11:15, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

For disclosure, I was invited by Jingibi to this discussion. What I see here is sources disagreeing; that being the case, the correct course is to present it as such, not attempt a questionable synthesis that leads to him being at the same time (pure) Albanian, Albanian-Turkish, and a Vallahas (the correct singular for Vallahades). The first two are mutually compatible, but the third is not, unless one engages in mental gymnastics (which veers into WP:OR, and causes disputes like this one). It is not for us to decide, nor to reconcile different sources into a single narrative. Simply state the facts: Some sources [refs] consider him an Albanian or of mixed Albanian-Turkish descent, but he was born in an area were mostly Vallahades lived [refs], and is regarded as such by other sources [refs], or something along these lines. Constantine ✍ 08:48, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Something like that above was my proposal to the section. Jingiby (talk) 09:00, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Jingiby i hope your not canvassing (wp:canvass) others for support. To Cplakidas, i disagree strongly. Not all sources refer to descent (you should read them and check. I have also given above the sources themselves and what they say) and such there is NO synthesis. A person's origin, a person's family is different from the person themselves and what community they belong to. It is synthesis and original research to cast interpretations that the sources claim a Valahades descent when they do no such thing. There are numerous examples of this of complex origins and personal community identifications in the Balkans that differ from origins yet alone certain examples communities in certain countries doing such things (i.e Arvanites). Otherwise people like Evangelos Zapas and Christakis Zographis are really an "Orthodox Albanian" as opposed to a Greek etc, etc and there are many out there like the sort. Please no original research. The sources speak clearly for themselves. Thank you.Resnjari (talk) 10:08, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Resnjari, I am well aware of the complexities of ethnic identity in the Balkans, but you are wrong in this case. I have read the sources, and they all mention one ethnic origin or another, period. Combining them into a compatible narrative is synthesis and hence original research; even the fact that there is a dispute going on about the interpretation of the sources points to that. The simple, honest, and quite frankly dispute-free solution is to simply present the facts as they are, without interpretation or an attempt to combine them, since that is not as such explicitly supported in any of the sources you have cited, and is merely your conclusion so far. And please don't drag other cases into this, you know better than that. Constantine ✍ 10:37, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Cplakidas, nope. Only one source mentions the word origin. Implying that the other three do when they do not is your personal view and the academic sources themselves do not use that terminology. Please don't infer something different of the academic sources when it is not there. To reiterate as you familar with the Balkans and identity one source mentions origin, another refers to his family and two then mention Fikri himself and his belonging to a community. Insisting that it is synthesis is flawed as content (sentences and the material based upon them) within the article are not combined but treated separate. The sentences are written in accordance with what the source says and not something else.Resnjari (talk) 12:58, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

So the ethnic origin of his family or the origin of his community is not his origin? Seriously? If you are going to play silly buggers, then a discussion is pointless. Please open an RfC so that we can get on with our lives. Constantine ✍ 13:04, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

No, those are separate. Origin, the family and the person themselves are treated as such. By saying that the other three sources are about origin (they don't even use the word) when they say nothing of the sort is original research. The sentences are based as per the sources. The Balkans is full of such people and communities and complex identities. Scholarship in relation to Fikri treats all those things separately. The onus is not on me to open a RfC. Also you were uninvolved in the previous dispute thread when a difference of views was discussed. Apart from @Jingby inviting other editors to dispute talks being a concern, not doing it openly is more disconcerting and in no way goes to build good faith.Resnjari (talk) 13:15, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Resnjari, I am not canvassing. I just was not sure whether you are right or I am wrong. I invited User talk:Cplakidas to understand his third opinion. It does not differ from my thoughts above. We have different sources with several variants of this person's ethnic origin. It will be honest to describe all of them and not to make some kind of compilation that is original research. Jingiby (talk) 11:22, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Jingiby, when you invite someone who is uninvolved, best to do it openly, not through other avenues. But then again why would you invite someone when you have a dispute going on. Hence my concerns with you canvassing. This article is covered under wp:MOSMAC. The discussion involved you and i. Getting others who are uninvolved involved does not go toward building good faith. With regards to the sources, your the one who wanted to add thing from Kanchov [6] which is synthesis and had nothing do about Fikri and is original research.Resnjari (talk) 12:58, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Resnjari, first of all, I want to say that I respect you very much as well the other attracted participant in the discussion. Secondly, everyone can be wrong, and initially I decided to wait to see how the discussion here will be unfold. So I did not react after you just removed the text I have added. Because of that I have added on 26 November a Template: Confusing section. Your comment on edit-summary was: The tag for a few weeks to see if anything comes up after that if no one comes with any new sources i'll remove it. Resnjari, 26 November 2018. On the next day, 27 November, you have removed the tag with different comment: Removing tag scholarship does not contradict. The discussion was going on, but you have removed the tag. I had no intention to revert your edit and meditated for a few days. Because I was not sure who is right, I decided to ask by e-mail Cplakidas on his opinion about the case. However he made his comment direct on the talk-page. That is all. Regards. Jingiby (talk) 15:31, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Jingiby i respect you too. If this really is a massive issue for you, just place an RFC. There are Balkan related articles where origin and the person actually contradict and not all sources are in the article (many omitted due to certain editors personal POVs even though they meet wiki standards). With that in mind I have made a case and point to include and not exclude everything about this man (the good, the bad and ugly as the expression goes). On where Fikri comes from, the order is: origin, family and the person himself. I wish i had more about his family but that's the best i could get. I am only one editor. If others have something on Fikri do add. But the source needs to be about Fikri, not something else.Resnjari (talk) 15:54, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Resnjari, You may invite in this discussion another not involved editor, to expose here another opinion. Jingiby (talk) 16:04, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Jingiby, I don't know about that. If i place a request for comment on someones talkpage it may be interpreted as canvassing on my part. Just do an RFC. Its the best way to get an uninvolved opinion. Best.Resnjari (talk) 16:13, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

RfC about the ethnic origin of Bekir Fikri

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should the "Origin" section of that article contain a description as it is at the moment, or it has to be changed to describe all these hypotheses consequently, i.e.: some sources consider him being of Albanian, another being of mixed Albanian-Turkish descent, but others regard him as Valahades (Greek Muslim) by origin, etc. Jingiby (talk) 16:42, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

• Comment The wording of the RfC is misleading. The current version of the article says that Bekir Fikri had Albanian origin and was a Vallahad by ethnic identity rather than "Bekir Fikri was at the same time of Albanian, Albanian-Turkish, and a Vallahas origin". I have not read what the concerned sources say and, as a result, I am not able to give an opinion on the content dispute yet. In any event, the wording of the RfC should be changed. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:35, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

I wish to add that Balkan regions such as Macedonia had (and to some extent still have) populations with mixed origins and identities. So giving much importance to Bekir Fikri's origin and identity is rather frivolous. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:38, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Comment could we have a presentation of the sources for these theories side by side? It's not impossible someone from Grevena could be of Albanian or Turkish origin -- the Greek speaking Muslim community often imported its clergy as it lacked a local strong religious education for training clergy. Hasluck visiting in the 1910s noted a lot of the Bektashi clergy was Albanian (Slavic is a possibility too). --Calthinus (talk) 15:33, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Guys can we stick to Fikri. One of the issues in previous threads was that it became a generalised discussion about Vallahades. The scholars don't contradict on Fikri. One states something about his origin, another about his immediate family and the other two about the man himself. Resnjari (talk) 16:05, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

The only source of the article that mentions their position on Bekir Fikri's origin explicitly is Gostentschnigg who says that he had Albanian origin. A number of sources describe him as a Vallahad, without giving any clue whether they refer to his origin or ethnic identity or both. Hanioğlu is, in my view, murky. He describes Bekir Fikri as being from an Albanian-Turkish family. It seems that no other source connects him with a Turkish origin or identity, so we might remove the part of the article that says: "He was born into an Albanian-Turkish family". It does not make much sense. Robert Elsie wrote on Bekir Fikri but did not mention any non-Albanian origin or identity of him, indicating that Elsie considered his Albanian origin and identity unquestionable. Edith Durham, a primary source who visited Albania in that time, reported that Bekir Fikri considered himself to be of Albanian origin [7]. I do not have the time to do more research on the matter right now and might need more time to make a conclusion of my own, but it seems to me that maybe the answer to the question raised in the RfC would be a short sentence:"Bekir Fikri was a Vallahad of Albanian origin". Idk who exactly the Vallahades were though. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:07, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Rhoads Murphey states on p. 132 his mother tongue was Greek and several sources describe him as a Vallahad, i.e. Greek Muslim. Jingiby (talk) 19:47, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

We know about Rhoads, i used the source in the article. Mother tongue is not always determinative of identity or origin. @Jingiby you speak of "several sources" describing him as Vallahades. Which are they? @Ktrimi991 came across a source where Bekir had referred to himself as being of Albanian origin. So far Ktrimi991's formula for dealing with the article section about him being a Vallahades and his Albanian origin sounds most reasonable.Resnjari (talk) 20:00, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

@Resnjari, I think this case is very special. Bekiri was part of the Greek speaking Muslim communities, which were the majority population at Yanina, Paramythia, Parga, Preveza, etc. that shared the same route of identity construction, with no evident differentiation between them and their Albanian speaking neighbors. These Muslim communities were often bilingual in Greek and Albanian. He had probably Muslim identity in a broad sense, Greek ethno-linguistic roots and Albanian national self-identification, hence he was fluent in Albanian and the Orthodox Greeks were his main enemies. Jingiby (talk) 04:26, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

@Jingiby, no one here has contested or denied that Fikri belonged to a Greek speaking community (i.e Vallahades). Nonetheless his personal origin was Albanian. There is no academic source presented that disputes this. Interpreting what Fikri may or may not have been based on this or that is interesting, but in the end things should be based on academic sources. @Ktrimi's comments go a long way to overcoming the impasse.Resnjari (talk) 12:57, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

@Jingiby: Can you post the sources for Vallahades? Seraphim System ^(talk) 17:58, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Article is about Fikri, not the Vallahades. Sources here need to relate to Fikri. Best.Resnjari (talk) 18:23, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

If some sources claim he had Greek as mother tongue and belonged ethnically to the Vallahades, i.e. to Greek-speaking Muslims, that originated from Orthodox Greeks converted during 17-19 century, his origin is obscure. Jingiby (talk) 06:55, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

The sources only say what you wrote in the first half of your sentence. They never say he has a Greek origin (even the detailed study by Metoki on the Vallahades which does mention Fikri). No source claims that his origin is obscure. You said you had several sources on Fikri, ok present them.Resnjari (talk) 14:03, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

(Invited by the bot) The RFC is confusingly and vaguely worded on a many-faceted confusing topic. You're never going to get much outside input this way. I'd suggest that the persons involved decide exactly what the question is and then do a clearer RFC. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:10, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

"A Vallahad of Albanian origin or possibly Albanian–Turkish origin" would seem to cover all bases.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:51, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.