Talk:Blood-vomiting game

It seems to me as if there should be more urgent focus on the reason of the rather odd title of the article, preferably in the first or second sentence. One comes here almost expecting to find some type of Jackass-like activity rather than a 19th century game of go. Peter ^Isotalo 21:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

title --> Blood-vomiting Go game ? Hanfresco 03:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

It's called the "Blood-vomiting game" everywhere else. Besides, if someone justs clicks here and reads the first paragraph it's pretty explanatory CanbekEsen 03:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

"who at the time was believed to become the successor": should this, perhaps, be "who at the time was expected to become the successor"? As it stands it doesn't make much sense, this is the only thing I could think of. - Jmabel | Talk 01:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

No kidding, the majority of this article doesn't make much sense or is very awkwardly phrased, I suspect perhaps it was not written by a native-English speaker. However, I do not know much about the topic, so I'll leave repairing it to someone else.

Expected meijin?

AFAIK the meijin post did not actually have successors as such. It was only filled when there was a player that was clearly best. (from Invincible: The Games of Shusaku). So the phrase Intetsu Akaboshi, who at the time was expected to become the successor to the Meijin post seems false. I did a quick search through the sourced article, but could not find the reference. I don't have time to properly read it now though. Taemyr 07:41, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Why Did the Game End

Did he resign, or did they stop because of his condition? i.e. what came first the game's end or his?

Jowa won the game, and then Akaboshi vomited blood on the board. It's possible he might have played better if he hadn't been ill, but there's no way to know. DS (talk) 01:03, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

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Ghost Moves

It seems like in Japanese and Chinese sources the three "ghost moves" are only referred to rather as "妙手" which translates simply to "brilliant move(s)" [1]

What source is there for this supposed legend that these moves were "given to Jōwa during the game by ghosts"?

IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 11:15, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I posted about this on reddit here https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments/156houu/the_ghost_moves/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1 and got this reply full of information which I can not look into since the sources are in Japanese, but I'll paste the comment here with the sources that others may be able to look into them.

What follows is a comment posted by user countingtls:

"One of the earliest "gossip" added to the game (that I can find) is from a book written by one of Jowa's students - 川村知足(Kawamura Chisoku) in 囲碁見聞誌 (more or less translate as "A diary of what (I) saw and heard in Go (world)") publish at 1884. And he was alive and had first-hand experience during the game.

https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/860992/1/14 https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/860992/1/15

It stated some facts, with a few "added statements". Even at the time, people had not agreed on what were the "three brilliant moves" (丈和三妙手). According to Kawamura, he knew they were move 70, and 78, and he speculated 68 was the third brilliant move. He also dissed Intetsu and his teacher Inseki Inoue where they would discuss between paused days, and only due to Jowa's brilliant, he won the game. (but ofc, Kawamura was clearly bias toward his teacher)

A lot of the Go books published in the late 19th century mentioned this game, and they all had different opinions about what were the three brilliant moves. Some dismissed move 78, some thought it was move 68 only, some thought the third move was move 80 (68, 70, 80). In any case, there were almost no "supernatural elements" added, and more about opinions to the actual game, with background information of where and when the game was played.

The first book to include "supernatural elements" to the story came from 坐隠談叢 (basically a book for the first attempted to Go history) by 安藤如意(also named 安藤豊次, he was a reporter, and amateur Go players, and he had a lot to do with establishing Go clubs and amateur Go communities in early 20th century). It was first published in 1904, but republished and reedited by many people all the way to late 20th century.

https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1872803/1/111

His account was much more colorful, and quoted an event and hearsay from 林元美(the head of House Hayashi, one of the four great Go houses, at the time the game was played). And according to Hayashi Genbi, when he was resting in a nearby temple, he heard from a monk told him the game was influenced by "Deities" (神佛). In order to win the game, Inseki Inoue tasked the monk to ask for the help from one of the highest deity in Japanese Buddhism - Fudo Myoo (不動明王), and change the fate of the game. But it must be kept in secret, or it will have dire consequence.

After Hayashi heard about this, he told Jowa about it, and Jowa was surprised and said to him, he also felt some unknown influenced to make him dizzy and could not concentrate, and he then he prayed to deities, and was able to recover. Afterward, Jowa learned from his wife, that she also came to ask in the temple for protection from another deity - 淺草觀音(asakusa kannnou) during the days when the game was played.

This clearly "supernatural story" I think is the root of all the later legends (due to how influential the book became). It clearly is a hearsay and no one can collaborate, and it might be a story house Hayashi deliberately spread to undermine the house Honinbo (they were no friend to Jowa). It feels like a deliberate attempt to downplay the roles of both Jowa and Intetsu (and by extension, pull themselves into the story).

Ironically though, when this story was retold in other books later in the Japanese society leading toward Imperial Japan during the early 20th century before WW2, it sorted became a fable story about the spirit of the warriors/samurai. And it was only through invoking their spirits, Deities would protect the ones who don't gave up (even in the face of death). And I think it was after this twist, the story starting to develop further into the later folklore.

碁盤の上から (1914) https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1183154/1/58

教育と人格 (1914) https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/980199/1/173 https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/980199/1/174 https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/980199/1/175

灯影綺談 (1920) https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/962965/1/193 https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/962965/1/194 https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/962965/1/195 This is the first "novelization" of the event, basically an extended version with some conversations, with extended scene where Jowa came home and kept trying to find ways to turn the game around, and finally passed out and waked up to yelled that he found the answer.

碁と将棋の話 (1925) https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1017660/1/29 https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1017660/1/30 https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1017660/1/31

名人達人決死の大試合 (1926) https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1018991/1/80 https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1018991/1/81 https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1018991/1/82

人間味の教育 (1929) https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1443813/1/185 https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1443813/1/186 https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1443813/1/187

新撰社会教育講演資料 (1936) https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1268142/1/181 After the 1920s/39s, the story started to become "educational materials" and spread further into popular culture. And in these "origin" stories, they were more or less "indirectly" influenced by Deities then actually came from some supernatural force. But I suspect during the translation across cultures into other languages, they just shifted and simplified to some degree.

The first "ghost story" of the English source I found was a novel - "First Kyu", published in 1999. And I suspect all other "Internet sources" or late books in English are heavily influenced by it (where the novelization of the Jowa story was clearly influenced by the earlier legends, minus the Japanese Buddhism element and Deities)

IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 23:51, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Also I changed the information on the page which was poorly sourced, removing mention of the "ghost moves" and refering to them as myoshu or brilliant moves. See revision comparison here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1148052880...1166656715

IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 23:54, 22 July 2023 (UTC)