Talk:Chalga

Discussion

i also dare say that chalga is not 'wildly acclaimed' by foreigners. most people that i have played chalga to are curious, but remain rather indifferent to its musical qualities, these ranging from americans to people from Turkey. the article which serves as a reference here is by an american who comes to like some tracks of the music, but is later unhappy with the entertainment it offers (based mostly on her observation that people in the most famous bulgarian chalga club are fat and dressed inaccodingly). i am not sure whether this article is a reliable source, and certainly not in the way it is interpreted. i also do not think that the word 'bias' is correct as it has negative connotation. there are prejudices and critics about the music by intellectuals as there are to many simplistic pop genres. the controversy about chalga is about it as a cultural phenomenon and about the values some of its performers openly adopt, and about the extreme controversy it generates itself on purpose, marketing them wildly. again, since this is the discussion page, i am presenting some opinions and/or facts and i do not insist that they conclude it in any way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.159.119.210 (talk) 03:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

this entry could be viewed as biased on both sides. i understand that it might generally appear negative to someone who does not know what chalga is. i am myself biased against chalga and it appeared too positive to me, so perhaps i could not be the judge of that, but, perhaps for the sake of neutrality there are some ambuguous phrases which make it lean on either side. for example, the article presents suggests that chalga was only criticized by the former communist intellectual elite, thus making it sound as an issue of new vs. old, the natural voice of the people against the old, often quite synthetic, intellectual guilds in the framework of socialsm. while such anatgonism does fuel the development of chalga to a great extent, and while it is true that this old elite has fought a war against chalaga and for the preservation of 'high values as they once were', and lost subsequently, this is not the only opposition in the heated debates of chalga. old and new intellectuals and prominent figures have criticised chalga, both for the values it endorses in its lyrics, and for the inauthenticity of the genre and industry. by inauthenticity i mean both the extreme 'pop'-ifying of the genre of wedding music, which stretches as far as it can to sell, and for the fact that many Bulgarian pop-folk songs are directly translated hits from other countries. as far as the lyrics go and a comment a little below: i do not know what the law perceives as 'sexually explicit lyrics', but some of the mega-hits on the scene do refer quite openly to sex and sexual imagery. "If only I get you, I will split your jeans" ("Radka-Piratka" by Rado Shisharkata), "Take off your sailor's shirt and I will show you my blue thong" (these are the refrains). I am sure that more examples of graphic sexual allusion can be found in the earlier chalga mega-hits. Other of the early texts are about the supreme importance of money and worldly goods to exitence ("Life is money, mobile phones and cars.)For all these reasons, chalga has been criticized by entire strata of Bulgarian society, to be imposing a very primitive set of values. i say imposing, because the chalga music industry is, as a matter of fact, the only properly-fucntioning music industry in Bulgaria, and it is able to market and promote itself vry well, thus promoting such messages too. 'chalga' is coming from signifying musical style to signifying (and indeed it does) a whole cultural view, and since there's been some reference to rap in the article, one of the famous BG rap groups (who will be quite surprised to find their name in that article) have announced that phenomenon in their album "Popfolk" and the corresponding single "My life is pop-folk". thus chalga is a very complex phenomenon (and it has come a long way from this state) which needs to be treated with more care. i will come back to this article as my 'investigation' of chalga progresses. also it could use some videos from youtube if that is permitted at all.

the references to other artists in the article are quite random and do not represent the musical life in Bulgaria. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.159.119.210 (talk) 02:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

i made the first major change to the chalga entry to correct what i thought was one-sided negative view. i see my theme-- that chalga is "bulgarian"--remains. i have watched the development of the entry with interest. with each change, i think the writer reveals his or her prejudices.

happily, even those writers who may be critical of chalga seem to acknowledge that it continues to be a factor in contemporary bulgarian culture.

as someone who loves chalga, i can only hope that, whatever the evolution may lead to, chalga stays vibrant. absorbtion of extra-national influences is inevitable. but, i hope that chalga resists temptations to become indistinguishable from international dance music which invades and dominates. it will be a sad day if all the dance clubs play the same ibiza-house-hip hop--london-paris-tokyo-new york euro mix.

NPOV, turbofolk

Tried to make the entry more neutral in tone; still needs work and better organization, so leaving the Wikify template in. One aspect relates to turbofolk: underground and vulgar revolutionary music appears to have been a common movement in the formerly communist Eastern bloc nations -- perhaps good for a separate article on this, with links to the different musical styles? Deirdre 22:04, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I thinks I loves chalga--at least if it is what I think it is; is it what the "Orkestra Bulnari" plays? I have a copy of a recording of theirs that a friend picked up in Bulgaria when were were there in 2000; we referred to it as the "naked chick" tape as it features, well, a voluptuous naked woman on the cover. The title is (pardon my possibly poor transliteration) "Nai Dobrite Kyuchetsi", which is appropriate as it's mostly chockeks (kyucheks if you prefer). I love this music and would like to find more of it, but haven't been able to locate any.

I also think the part of the article that someone above was complaining about being "POV" is actually correct and should stand, at least the statement that chalga is often "denigrated as a second-rate musical genre originating from foreign sources". While this is far from my feeling about the music, I can attest that there is great hostility towards this music by Bulgarians; at least there was in 2000 when I last visited. Our tour guide, a well-known Bulgarian singer, described this music as "jerk music". I wonder how much of this animosity is due to the ethnicity of some of the musicians: I understand that Vulnari, like other similar bands, are ethnic Turkish Bulgarians (and it's well-known how the Turkish minority in Bulgaria has been abused and mistreated in recent history). Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to open that can of worms ... --66.52.186.118 07:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

negative

Meh, why is this article so negative? look at any style of music, no matter how it "sucks" the article itself rarely devotes the bulk of the first section to why it sucks. come on! Dan Carkner 14:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

no sexually explicit lyrics

I removed the text "sexually explicit lyrics" from the article. There are no sexually explicit lyrics in chalga as far as I know. In Bulgaria, they are common only in the hip-hop/rap music as far as I know. --V111P 01:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Another: "sexually explicit lyrics"?, yes they are common in Bulgarian chalga music but not in all songs. While the Arabian chalga stays with non explicit lyrics, except the chalga that been sung by the Caoli people in Iraq and Eastern Syria that they call كاولية or الغجر. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.18.152.150 (talk) 11:02, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Challenging reasons given for official disapproval of chalga

The article currently says, in a section attempting to explain why there was official disapproval of the genre:

Such simple peasant music had no place in a forward-looking, modern socialist state ...

I challenge this statement. Based on my knowledge of Bulgarian folk music, if anything, the state (that is, the Communist Bulgarian government) threw its full support behind state ensembles that exalted this music ("simple peasant music"). I think the other conclusions of this section are correct, that chalga was dissed because of its "lewd" and sensual nature. +ILike2BeAnonymous 20:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• I challenge the statement that there are no sexually explicit lyrics in Chalga

As an example I will give you the Azis Lirics of the song "Che goliam e" ('Cos its Big)

"Ako Iskash da si s mene Triabva da si na kolene che goliam e vsichki znaiat meraka mi po tebe che goliam e vsichki znaiat mnogo,mnogo goliam che sramuvam se da kaja mnogo mnogo me sram zapomni shte boli shte boli do zori"

translates:

If you wona be with me you have to be on your knees 'Cos big are my needs ‘Cos its Big everyone agrees , it's very very big And I am so ashamed to tell you this So remember :Its gona hurt 'till sunrise —Preceding unsigned comment added by Veshtericata (talk • contribs) 12:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

slavi *replaced* chalga?

what? --chaizzilla 04:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Article fraught with opinions and without sources

There are many, many instances in this article that are subtle insults of the genre, or in some way express the author's opinion of the genre while *pretending* to be neutral. It is clearly one-sided, and does not meet Wikipedia's standards. Of the many claims, none have sources and are not verifiable. The English page and the Bulgarian page have different content.

Please, if you can't keep your personal bias out of your writing, do not write for Wikipedia. This is an encyclopedia and must remain neutral.

Some examples:

- "lyrics are generally considered to be banal and pointless by most educated Bulgarians"
- "epitomizes the cheap and addictive quality of the genre."
- "Chalga is also frequently tied to the so-called mafia or crime thug figures who have made fortunes in narcotics, prostitution, and human trafficing. These thugs are often seen at chalga clubs proudly displaying their wives and girlfriends with their enormous silicone-filled breasts and high heels."

This sort of writing continues pervades the entire article.

From the official policy:

Fairness of tone

If we are going to characterize disputes neutrally, we should present competing views with a consistently fair and sensitive tone. Many articles end up as partisan commentary even while presenting both points of view. Even when a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization.

We should write articles with the tone that all positions presented are at least plausible, bearing in mind the important qualification about extreme minority views. We should present all significant, competing views sympathetically. We can write with the attitude that such-and-such is a good idea, except that, in the view of some detractors, the supporters of said view overlooked such-and-such a detail. Glacialfury 22:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Good 'nuf. However, I'd just like to point out that the first example you gave above (the statement "lyrics are generally considered to be banal and pointless by most educated Bulgarians"), could be an admissible statement here if one could demonstrate (ideally with a citation of some kind) that "most educated Bulgarians" do indeed share this opinion of chalga. I bring this up because, in my travels to Bulgaria, I did find this to be true among at least the educated Bulgarians I came into contact with. Chalga is indeed quite controversial within Bulgaria. The other two statements you listed are, indeed, just opinions and don't belong here, but the first statement could be a verifiable one. It's the difference between saying "chalga sucks" and "so-and-so says chalga sucks" (with a reference, of course). +ILike2BeAnonymous 23:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

True. I'm married to a Bulgarian, and have traveled there several times. There is a strong latent discrimination toward anything Turkish or Roma in the culture, which given the history is understandable, but not justifiable. This discriminatory bias leaks everywhere into Bulgarian culture, particularly where there is some cultural blending. I agree with you about that first statement in principle, however I feel that the original author's *intent* is to imply that "educated Bulgarians" does not include Roma, Turks, or other ethnic minorities - it is used as a subtle insult to say "only dumb people and gypsies listen to this crap." Could be my opinion, but the overall tone of that article leads me to that conclusion. Glacialfury 13:49, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I've cut out most of the statements that were blatantly discriminatory, and moved those that have a place in the article to their own section, as there is no question that those views exist in Bulgaria - I believe they have a legitimate place in the article, but not infused throughout. Also added citation tags to various statements and sections where many statements are unsourced. I'm more than happy to discuss any of these changes if anyone feels them unwarranted. Let's keep this article clean. Glacialfury 14:59, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

These are facts, dude. Please don't throw aside every negative word, because of it's vulgar essence. The world of chalga is degenerate and grim. Don't say that such opinion is biased until you see for yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KucheKlizma (talk • contribs) 09:23, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Criticism section contains no criticism

The criticisim section starts off with "Chalga is popular", there is no actual criticism in the section (ok only the last sentence is criticism, but its only 27 words out of the 143 total). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.139.49.180 (talk) 00:32, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Many attempts to Vandalize the article

I noticed that this page is very attractive for vandalism. I think that this article needs some kind of protection from future attempts of vandalism.

Beargrownnn (talk) 03:29, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Etymology of the name Chalga

Although the Turkish origin of the word "Chalga" is clearly verified by the given source (and many more can be included if necessary), the User Olsonspterom keeps deleting the relevant category and pushes a false, claimed Arabic origin with a source that has no correlation with his claim. So would you please provide sources that verify "Chalgi" as an originally Arabic word? If not, I will revert your version, please note that a further reverting my be regarded as Edit-Warring. Akocsg (talk) 01:21, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I added two more citations. Read and Enjoy them. Cheers ;) Olsonspterom (talk) 02:16, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Again, those citations don't have any correlation to the word Chalgi itself, they are just two more sources that cite the very same info (an Iraqi style that borrowed its name from Turkish). You clearly cannot prove the claimed Arab origin of the word, it's no wonder since it is Turkish, and not Arabic. So please stop adding this irrelevant, misleading piece of information into the text. Akocsg (talk) 17:42, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Chalga compilation albums

A tag has been placed on Category:Chalga compilation albums requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. --David Tornheim (talk) 15:57, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Removed external links

I've removed all of the entries in the "External links" section as they're all long dead or archived, and even if they were live and up to date they wouldn't be much relevant either. I'm pasting the list here just for the record:

• ChalgaBox - The newest Balkan pop-folk and chalga music
• Balkania Fanzine - Chalga and Balkan Music Video Culture Blog
• Chalga playlist - Chalga playlist
• Music-Bulgaria.com - List of Bulgarian chalga CDs
• Brigada Archived 2011-07-17 at the Wayback Machine - Chalga - Popfolk - Mashups
• Chalga music - Everything about chalga music - articles, videos, mp3, mixes
• BIAD - Website of Bulgarian Chalga club

– Uanfala (talk) 10:56, 30 October 2021 (UTC)