Talk:Challah cover

June 2008

This article is a bunch of nonsense. It should be deleted, and any worthy material added as a section on Challah.--Gilabrand (talk) 07:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

On second thought, if information can be found on the history of the Challah cover as a piece of Judaica, I can see some justification for having such an article. Ask Moses is a very superficial site. For this article to be encyclopedic, more serious sources will have to be found--Gilabrand (talk) 08:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

What are you saying? That the Gemara, Tosafot, Tur, and Sefer Hachinuch are a bunch of nonsense? And that significance as an item of Judaica is the only redeeming factor? People who actually care about halakha would disagree with you. Yoninah (talk) 11:16, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Yoninah, it might be nice if you looked at the date of my comment and what the article looked like at the time before jumping to such conclusions--Geewhiz (talk) 19:22, 4 October 2011 (UTC).

Whoops! I noticed on my watchlist that you'd changed something on this talk page, and assumed you'd added the comment. I didn't even notice the date. Sorry!!! Yoninah (talk) 20:10, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Challah and covering (copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Challah and covering)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I've just added a short paragraph to pad out an annoying long-standing empty section at Challah#Covering the challah. I had intended to do a short paraphrase of some of the material at Challah cover, but I found that article to be rather incoherent, poorly sourced, and lacking a clear and understandable halakhic rational for covering the challah during the blessing of the wine. There's a Rabbinic anecdote and some theologically-heavy content about "not shaming" the challah, which just didn't lend itself well to a summary on another article.

The upshot is my addition to Challah is basically WP:OR based on my own very sketchy understanding and needs someone knowledgable to cast an eye over it. Plus the Challah cover article needs a bit of work. AnotherNewAccount (talk) 15:40, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Rather than saying it is WP:OR, I'd say that on its surface, the extent of detail you've added is more or less WP:BLUE and doesn't really need sourcing. But to suggest a correction: the cover doesn't even have to be cloth or paper. Plastic, wood, or anything else would be fine. (I wouldn't add the following, but in principle the cover can even be transparent, though that's not most people's preferred approach.) StevenJ81 (talk) 17:17, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

I deliberately kept it basic for that very reason. I did want to explain in more detail exactly why the challah is covered, but the challah cover article doesn't explain this clearly at all. I took on board the idea that the cover could be anything. Just out of interest (it's just occurred to me), would a shatnez cover be forbidden, or does that only apply to worn garments? AnotherNewAccount (talk) 20:20, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

I think so, although I don't know that you'd ever find one hanging around. Shatnez is only forbidden for wearing.

I was curious enough to go look at the Tur inside (without commentaries, it was on my iPad). Tur does quote that Yerushalmi about "shaming" the bread there. He goes on to say that he heard something to the effect of "in remembrance of the manna", which had dew above and dew below–hence the challah has a cloth below (the regular tablecloth) and a cloth above (the challah cover).

Really, the whole "shaming" thing has always seemed like a shortcut way of saying the following:

• Normally, if you approach a table on a weekday that has challah and wine on it, you say motzi first and then pre hagefen, because bread always takes priority as a food.
• Arguably, the same rule should apply on Shabbat, because bread is still the most important ("priority") food. And if the challah is uncovered at a Shabbat table, we would have to do that.
• Yet on Shabbat we say Kiddush on the wine before we make motzi.
• So when we cover the challah, it's as if it's not on the table at all. (Remember, it's a pretty common halakhic principle that what you can't see with your naked eye is immaterial by Jewish law.)
• By that mechanism, wine has at least as high a priority as anything else on the table at the time you approach the table for kiddush.

So if you can incorporate something like that into the two articles, with sources, you should be good to go. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:12, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Just wanted to point out that there is an opinion that the challah deckel can not be transparent. Debresser (talk) 21:38, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough. Thanks. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:45, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

If you make kiddush Friday night on challah, do you still cover the challah? Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:59, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

I honestly don't know. I think I made kiddush exactly once in my life on challah, when I was caught away from home unexpectedly. I don't for the life of me remember what I did, and I certainly didn't do any research on what I was supposed to do! שבת שלום. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:05, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

I'll take that as homework. I found this which has some sources for covering challah, http://matzav.com/kiddush-friday-night-part-3-covering-the-challah/ Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:09, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Just for the record, I did find one source that says you hold the challah in your hands while you make kiddush on the challah, not sure if that's covered or not. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 13:39, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

That is straightforward Shulchan Aruch, and not only on Shabbat, that you have to hold the bread with all 10 fingers when saying the blessing. Debresser (talk) 14:14, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Right, but not just for the Hamotzie, you need to hold it for the kiddush. What is interesting is that while looking for this, I found that Ashkenazim should wash first and then make kiddush. The Remah says that is "our minhag, and should not be changed." I wonder when the change occurred that only Yekkes do that. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 14:22, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Do we need to move this to Talk:Challah cover? StevenJ81 (talk) 15:00, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

That's truly fascinating! I don't know I'll go about incorporating this information, but I'm happy for the moment to have something short, clear and accurate in place; that empty section has been in the back of my mind for months. But I learnt something new today! Thankyou. AnotherNewAccount (talk) 22:10, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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