Talk:Clifton House School

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( Article history links:

• Clifton House School
• Harold Styan

)

• ... that sports teacher Harold Styan of Clifton House School was a gymnast who played the music halls when young, and knocked out two attackers in his old age? (155 characters)

• Source: Harrogate People and Places and Clifton House School Old Boys' Tales

• ALT1: ... that gym teacher Harold Styan of Clifton House School was awarded the Order of the British Empire for services to youth, but as an old man he knocked out two lads who attacked him? (180 characters) Source: The London Gazette and as ALT0
• Reviewed: Bunt sind schon die Wälder and Helen Chaman Lall
• Comment: Clifton House School was moved to mainspace by me on 4 November 2024. Harold Styan was moved to mainspace on my behalf by admin Keith D on 18 November 2024, because my pagemover rights did not permit me to override a redirect page.

Created by Storye book (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 110 past nominations.

Storye book (talk) 11:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC).

• I'm not yet sure if I will give this a full review, so I'll just leave this as a comment for now. Although the angle provided meets DYKINT, I have reservations if it meets the guidelines. For one, both hooks may need a trimming (it might be better to focus on the "two attackers were knocked out" angle alone without mentioning the gymnast or music hall clauses). More importantly, I'm not sure if the hooks as currently written meet WP:DYKHOOKSTYLE, specifically the part about avoiding writing hooks where the bolded article is only tangentially related to the main hook fact (the hooks seem to be more about Styan than the school itself). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:26, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• ALT0 is 155 characters. According to the link you provided about trimming, it is ideal length.
• ALT1 is 180 characters. Being 180 characters is not a trimming issue by itself.
• Styan was a big part of that school, as can be seen in the article. There is plenty of material about him in the article, because he was a big presence there. If our readers click on the bold link, they will read more about Styan there than anywhere else online. Therefore he is relevant to the hook.
• Meanwhile I'll go and find an extra hook or two, anyway. Storye book (talk) 10:04, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• ALT2: ... Clifton House School formed a scout pack which received an award from Lord Baden Powell for "best pack the United Kingdom"? Source: Neesam, Malcolm (26 February 1999). "Lord Baden Powell on the Stray". Harrogate Advertiser and Weekly List of the Visitors. p. 7 col.4. Retrieved 30 October 2024 – via British Newspaper Archive. "Lord Baden Powell was in Harrogate for the special purpose of presenting Peter's Pole to the Clifton House School Pack, which had won the award of best pack in the United Kingdom, an exceptional commendation".
• ALT0a: ... that sports teacher Harold Styan of Clifton House School played the music halls when young, and knocked out two attackers in his old age? Source as above
• ALT0b: ... that Clifton House School's sports teacher Harold Styan played the music halls when young, and knocked out two attackers in his old age? Source as above Storye book (talk) 11:12, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

One issue is that, while not an official rule or guidelines, it is usually discouraged to mention people without articles by name in hooks. I'm not sure how strict that practice is, but it's been brought up many times in the past. In any case, it might be necessary to remove Styan's name from the hooks. As for the trimming part, the wording I had was something like "... that a Clifton House School sports teacher knocked out two attackers in his old age?", which is more straightforward. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think your suggestion is appropriate, because this was an expensive private school, and Styan had the Order of the British Empire for his youth work. In other words, he was a hero and teacher, not a gangster. The hooks that I gave suggest that he was a complicated and interesting character, but your hook suggests that he might be just some kind of felon or that he ultimately developed dementia. If there is no specific rule against using his name, then I don't see why we should remove it. However I shall look at that section of the article and see whether there is enough there to make Styan into a separate article, then the hooks will have his name in lights, and this nom will be a double nom. Storye book (talk) 16:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Update. I am separating the two articles, but it will take a day or two. Thank you for your patience. Please note that the Harold Styan link is currently a redirect to Clifton House School. I shall correct that when I publish his article. Storye book (talk) 18:03, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not a rule that's formally codified and thus not in the guidelines, but I remember it being discouraged before. I think Theleekycauldron might know about it. In any case, if the hook becomes a double nom then that particular issue becomes moot. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

see WP:DYKG#C1 theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 23:13, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are referring to, Leeky, but the redirect is temporary on this page as explained above, and not intended for publication on the Main Page. I have nearly finished Styan's own page, and hope to publish today or tomorrow (when the redirect will resolve to a direct link). Thank you for your patience. Storye book (talk) 12:09, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good to me! :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:36, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

• Harold Styan now has his own article, so his name is now bolded in the hooks. Admin, please could we now have this as a double nom? BlueMoonset? Mandarax? Maile66? Thank you. (I shall shortly provide a QPQ for the Harold Styan article Update: second review done. See "reviewed" section above).Storye book (talk) 11:40, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
  • The second article has been integrated into the nomination template. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 18:14, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

• Thank you, Mandarax! Storye book (talk) 18:28, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

• Both articles are now ready for review. Storye book (talk) 11:40, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Clifton House, Queens Road, Harrogate

I suspect that Clifton House could have originally been designed by - or at least inhabited and named by - architect John Henry Hirst. Hirst designed a lot of the 19th-century buildings in central Harrogate for the developer George Dawson. His primary domicile was in Clifton, Bristol, but he needed a second home in Harrogate, so he could have lived in and renamed that house. Hirst certainly had a drawing office in Harrogate, so he could have combined a home and office. Just a thought, anyway. Storye book (talk) 10:35, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Scout pack

There are several mentions of a scout pack in the article. The term "pack" is used only for cub scouts - usually in the 7 to 10 age group, while the term "troop" is used for the scout section - 11 to 15 or sometime to 18 as senior scouts or other similar terms. So should pack be replaced by troop? Bduke (talk) 09:44, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

1. This was a preparatory school (age 5–14, but mostly up to 11 in the census), so all or most of the members would be cubs. 2. All the sources from that era, and later, call it a scout pack, so who are we to change it? 3. When the pack moved to a local church after the school closed in 1968, no expansion of age range was mentioned, and it was still called a pack, and I don't think we should speculate. In historical articles, it is always safest to imitate the vocabulary of the historical sources as far as possible (unless language usage has changed or differs internationally, so far as to be misleading - e.g. words like "gay" or "dumb"). Storye book (talk) 13:40, 14 December 2024 (UTC).