Talk:Czech comics
Latest comment: 14 years ago by 91.148.159.4 in topic Were considered bourgeois?
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Czech comics?
editI wonder if this is important enough to form the basis of its own entry? From the entry it seems to be a term made up by one comic. There are few similar entries and those that exist, e.g. British Invasion (comics), are major and widely dicsussed. I'd suggest that it might be better of this was moved to Czech comics to form the kernel of the entry. (Emperor 16:27, 25 June 2007 (UTC))
- The fact is this article needs to be extensively rewritten. ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 11:48, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Were considered bourgeois?
editComics in the Czech Republic whilst under communist rule were seen as bourgeois.<footnote 1> After this rule ended, numerous publishing houses began to publish comics across the former communist countries ...
This implies that the only permitted position in the country was condemnation of comics, that the Communist government had a policy against comics and that there were no comics during the Communist period; only with democracy did comics appear.
First, citing one author isn't enough to prove that comics generally "were seen" as bourgeois. And I'm not sure that even the cited author condemns comics in general, because the title only implies criticism of Western comics. Second, I certainly remember some Czech children's comic books from that time - in fact I came to this article precisely because I was looking for the name of a specific tongue-in-cheek comic book about Czech history that I had had as a child (OBRÁZKY Z ČESKÝCH DĚJIN A POVĚSTÍ). (I say "comic" broadly speaking, the books were made up of pictures, but I guess the text was below the pictures and not in speech balloons.)--91.148.159.4 (talk) 22:35, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
- I now see that even the article itself confesses that there were Czech comic books in Communist times. In fact, out of the ten recognized "most important works in the Czech comics history", eight were published during the Communist period! Had they been "seen as bourgeois", they wouldn't have been allowed to be published at all.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 22:46, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
- The comics in Czechoslovakia during communist era was considered as an example of rubbish and low-grade American pop-culture, and the production was limited mainly to books for children and youth people. If you look at the list of important Czech comic books, the publishing of all albums by Kája Saudek (Muriel (both parts), Lips Tulian, Arnal a dva dračí zuby etc.) was banned by communists. He published covertly by Czech Speleological Society, and all of his works were published only after the fall of Czechoslovak communists. He was even forced (in a poor life conditions) to sell originals of his drawings for the excellent album Muriel and the Orange Death. The first edition of Muriel and the Orange Death was published a month ago (forty years after its creation) here in the Czech Republic. It was sold out in four days, with remarkable interest of Czech media and public. The missing pages were replaced by original typewritten screenplay. Rychlé šípy is a child of the Czechoslovak First Republic, Velké putování Vlase a Brady is a comic book for children, as well as Čtyřlístek. Příhody malého boha and Vzpoura Mozků were created by excellent editors of a popular 1980's magazine ABC - Vlastislav Toman, František Kobík and Václav Šorel. Those works are - to some extent - examples of communist ideas grafted onto the comics genre, though both the books are very good. The rest of listed works (Voleman and Nitro těžkne glycerínem) was published in the 2000's. The explanation in this article is quite laconic and insufficient, but this fact should be mentioned, it is possible to find many reliable sources for this claim. During this weekend, I'll start articles for both parts of Muriel (Muriel and Angels is the title of the first part), so check the red links, if you are interested. Thanks for the mentioning of the charming and funny book illustrated by Jiří Kalousek, it was my opus magnum, when I was a child :) I'm familiar with the mentioned books, and as a Czech comics fan, I also own almost all of them :) I can add citations for all of my claims. Thanks for your interesting question. --Vejvančický (talk) 16:55, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- I don't understand why you think "comic books for children and youth" don't count as comic books. Some (indeed most of us who aren't adult comic fans) would argue most regular comic books are for children and youth. So if you admit that children's comic books were OK, you should write that "Comics for mature audiences were seen as bourgeois in the Czech Republic whilst under communist rule". Or, more likely, "comics in Western genres X, Y, Z were seen as bourgeois". Otherwise, it's just wildly accurate and produces the false impression that there were no comic books or that all of them were underground. (As a side note, the bit about "being published covertly by the Czech speleological society" is also kinda strange - if there had been a serious policy to prevent publication, no speleological society would have been able to help). --91.148.159.4 (talk) 18:11, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- 91.148.159.4, the article is not in a good shape, but I'm not responsible for that. The topic is quite complicated, it isn't easy to compile a perfect article. Your questions are inspiring and I'll try to improve the article (maybe with your help - please, ask whatever). The genre was considered as rubbish and low-grade American pop-culture mainly in the beginnings, however, the 40-years communist rule in the Czechoslovakia wasn't a monolith of one stable and unchanging opinion. The situation was diferrent in the 1950s (in the first half the Czech communists only repeated Stalin's words, the second half was "more free", but Josef Lada and Ondřej Sekora created comic strips for children even in that time), the 1960s were more friendly (note - that's the time when Saudek created his best works), the 1970s and the normalization brought another change and partial restoration of the bad situation of 1950s. In the 1980s, it was possible for Saudek to publish in a small and inconspicuous publishing house. One of the most important comic creators during Czechoslovak communist era, Vlastislav Toman, claims in this interview, that "the first battle was won after communists accepted the fact that comics is a question of the content, not form." Sadly, Toman's work in the 1980s confirms this fact - his comic series published in the ABC often contain some elements of communist propaganda. The content of listed children comic albums was not as problematic for censorship as Saudek's albums, deeply inspired by the American comics and sometimes openly critical of communists. I didn't say that I don't count albums for children as comic books, it is more complicated. Thanks for your interest. --Vejvančický (talk) 15:37, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- OK, I'm glad I've inspired you. :) Thank you for your detailed answer. I'm glad we agree that a more nuanced description is in order.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 22:22, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
- 91.148.159.4, the article is not in a good shape, but I'm not responsible for that. The topic is quite complicated, it isn't easy to compile a perfect article. Your questions are inspiring and I'll try to improve the article (maybe with your help - please, ask whatever). The genre was considered as rubbish and low-grade American pop-culture mainly in the beginnings, however, the 40-years communist rule in the Czechoslovakia wasn't a monolith of one stable and unchanging opinion. The situation was diferrent in the 1950s (in the first half the Czech communists only repeated Stalin's words, the second half was "more free", but Josef Lada and Ondřej Sekora created comic strips for children even in that time), the 1960s were more friendly (note - that's the time when Saudek created his best works), the 1970s and the normalization brought another change and partial restoration of the bad situation of 1950s. In the 1980s, it was possible for Saudek to publish in a small and inconspicuous publishing house. One of the most important comic creators during Czechoslovak communist era, Vlastislav Toman, claims in this interview, that "the first battle was won after communists accepted the fact that comics is a question of the content, not form." Sadly, Toman's work in the 1980s confirms this fact - his comic series published in the ABC often contain some elements of communist propaganda. The content of listed children comic albums was not as problematic for censorship as Saudek's albums, deeply inspired by the American comics and sometimes openly critical of communists. I didn't say that I don't count albums for children as comic books, it is more complicated. Thanks for your interest. --Vejvančický (talk) 15:37, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don't understand why you think "comic books for children and youth" don't count as comic books. Some (indeed most of us who aren't adult comic fans) would argue most regular comic books are for children and youth. So if you admit that children's comic books were OK, you should write that "Comics for mature audiences were seen as bourgeois in the Czech Republic whilst under communist rule". Or, more likely, "comics in Western genres X, Y, Z were seen as bourgeois". Otherwise, it's just wildly accurate and produces the false impression that there were no comic books or that all of them were underground. (As a side note, the bit about "being published covertly by the Czech speleological society" is also kinda strange - if there had been a serious policy to prevent publication, no speleological society would have been able to help). --91.148.159.4 (talk) 18:11, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- The comics in Czechoslovakia during communist era was considered as an example of rubbish and low-grade American pop-culture, and the production was limited mainly to books for children and youth people. If you look at the list of important Czech comic books, the publishing of all albums by Kája Saudek (Muriel (both parts), Lips Tulian, Arnal a dva dračí zuby etc.) was banned by communists. He published covertly by Czech Speleological Society, and all of his works were published only after the fall of Czechoslovak communists. He was even forced (in a poor life conditions) to sell originals of his drawings for the excellent album Muriel and the Orange Death. The first edition of Muriel and the Orange Death was published a month ago (forty years after its creation) here in the Czech Republic. It was sold out in four days, with remarkable interest of Czech media and public. The missing pages were replaced by original typewritten screenplay. Rychlé šípy is a child of the Czechoslovak First Republic, Velké putování Vlase a Brady is a comic book for children, as well as Čtyřlístek. Příhody malého boha and Vzpoura Mozků were created by excellent editors of a popular 1980's magazine ABC - Vlastislav Toman, František Kobík and Václav Šorel. Those works are - to some extent - examples of communist ideas grafted onto the comics genre, though both the books are very good. The rest of listed works (Voleman and Nitro těžkne glycerínem) was published in the 2000's. The explanation in this article is quite laconic and insufficient, but this fact should be mentioned, it is possible to find many reliable sources for this claim. During this weekend, I'll start articles for both parts of Muriel (Muriel and Angels is the title of the first part), so check the red links, if you are interested. Thanks for the mentioning of the charming and funny book illustrated by Jiří Kalousek, it was my opus magnum, when I was a child :) I'm familiar with the mentioned books, and as a Czech comics fan, I also own almost all of them :) I can add citations for all of my claims. Thanks for your interesting question. --Vejvančický (talk) 16:55, 29 January 2010 (UTC)