Talk:Definitions of whiteness in the United States

Sicilians as non-white

The article claims that Sicilians were required to check off "Southern Italian," as opposed to "white." I don't care what the source article says; this is obviously incorrect. A quick check of the Ellis Island website will show ship's passenger lists from the early 1900s with every "race" under the sun, from "Southern Italian" to "Hebrew" to "German" to "Irish" to, yes, "English." It was not an either/or. 2601:246:4000:99F0:6498:E347:F78C:E267 (talk) 04:17, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

What is said here is correct. I can provide primary sources of Ellis Island entry forms collaborating that English people were put as "English", Jewish people from England were put as "Hebrew", and Italians were put as either "Northern Italian" and "Southern Italian". Did not find an entry form log that showed anyone identified "White" under the "race or people" question. Also, the source for this is an essay that provides nothing additional to substantiate the claim. Truthington (talk) 16:37, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not seeing where this is mentioned anywhere in the article (I'm guessing it was removed?), but in any event the immigration forms of that day used the term "race" the way we understand "ethnicity" and "color' the way we understand 'race". So while Italian immigrants had to select their region for "race", for "color" they were only given one option: white. See "White on Arrival" in the references. Jonathan f1 (talk) 23:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I looked into this on the Ellis Island Foundation website. I looked through a variety of passenger manifests forms. There is a "Nationality" question which is what state you come from. There is a "Race or People" question which is your ethnic identity. These 2 things were asked because there were states in Europe at the time that included multiple ethnicities within their borders. For example, a Polish person originating from Austria-Hungary would put "Nationality: Austria-Hungary" and "Race or People: Polish".

Here are 2 example passenger manifests, one of passengers from England in 1903, and the other from Italy in 1906.

England: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ellis_Island_Passenger_Manifest_-_1903_-_England.png

Italy: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ellis_Island_Passenger_Manifest_-_1903_-_Italy.png

The English manifest has "Nationality: England" for all passengers, but the "Race or People" is Hebrew if the passenger was ethnically Jewish and English if the passenger was ethnically English. The last residence entries for the passengers vary.

The Italian manifest has "Nationality: Italy" and "Race or People: Italian (South)" for all passengers. The last residence entries for all passengers is Sicily, explaining the answers for the "Race or People" question.

These 2 examples makes it clear that these passenger manifests are not indicative of whether southern Italians were considered legally as White or not. In fact, the race-based restrictions on naturalization in place at the time make it clear that these immigrants were legally classified as White at the federal level. Truthington (talk) 00:22, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, it's wise that we avoid original research which is technically what you're doing by analyzing these forms. We want a secondary scholarly source that's done this analysis, and we happen to have one in this section that claims Italian immigrants from all parts of Italy were recorded as white on immigration forms. The source also states that the term "race" more commonly meant ethnicity 100 years ago, which is confusing to modern people who don't speak like this.

But I do agree that the simple fact that Italians had naturalization rights ipso facto implies they were classified as white by the US government. There isn't a single racial prerequisite case on record involving any Sicilian or any other Italian, which further implies that nobody ever tried disputing this classification, not even the anti-immigrant hardliners. I've also read the published political discourse in that day between pro-immigrant and anti-immigrant factions, and the debates revolved mostly around literacy rates, occupational status and prospects for assimilation, and rarely if ever talked about the 'race' of Europeans. Even the most racist polemicists in that day classified Mediterranean Europeans as part of a "white race" but within a hierarchy that placed 'Nordics' at the top and 'Alpines' at the bottom. In fact, in Madison Grant's The Passing of the Great Race, he classified Welsh people as the same 'race' as Italians (ie Mediterranean), but Irish and other British people as 'Nordic'. This is a non-issue. Jonathan f1 (talk) 09:57, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

American Jews

This page is persistently edited to classify all American Jews as "Middle Eastern". This is false, as European Jews have a different history of racial classification in the United States compared to MENA Jews. It is inappropriate to use Wikipedia to promote fringe race science theories and it erases the specificity of the MENA Jewish experience of racialization under US law and in the US census. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 09:28, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree that Jews do not necessarily fit under Middle Eastern -- some Jews are European descent, some Middle Eastern descent, and there are others as well (e.g., African). so I will edit the heading accordingly and put Jews into its own category. ProfGray (talk) 15:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

This was undone at some point, I have reinstated the consensus.Boynamedsue (talk) 08:00, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Race, Law, and Politics

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Melissagroseibl (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Dorbwe (talk) 16:46, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Cleanup needed

In adding citation templates, I found that the second ref contained two book references while the text only refers to the first. I have placed the second within a comment for now. WriterArtistDC (talk) 15:01, 27 December 2024 (UTC)