Talk:Gay Nazis myth

Lead

There is a weirdness to writing "discredited theory asserting that homosexuals were prominent in the Nazi party" next to a picture of a prominent homosexual in the Nazi party. I question whether there is any "theory" here at all. But the claim that "homosexuals were prominent in the Nazi party" is not discredited. The article even refers to "the homosexuality of well known Nazis" in WP's voice. I think something is missing here. The lead does not correctly describe the myths being peddled. Srnec (talk) 23:35, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Srnec, While no one denies that there were a handful of homosexuals who were actually prominent in the party, the idea that's discredited is that they were prominent as a group, had a significant negative influence on Nazi policies or controlled the party (see "Historicity" section). When I wrote this, I meant "homosexuals [as a group] were prominent in the Nazi party". If you think there is a better phrasing which makes this more clear, please be bold. buidhe 00:07, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Ernst Rohm surrounded himself with like minded thugs and were the hammer the NSDAP came to power with. The entire page is bogus. The fact that Rohm was on the losing side of an internal power struggle doesn't make their influence a "myth". 162.223.204.36 (talk) 19:13, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

See Rohm scandal for the real story instead of these deranged ramblings (t · c) buidhe 23:31, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 22:35, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Klaus Mann argued that homosexuals had become "Jews of the antifascists" due to being blamed for Nazism?
  • ALT1:... that the idea that homosexuals caused Nazism has been promoted from the 1930s up to this day? Note: The latest incident mentioned in the article is 2020
  • ALT2:... that the idea that homosexuals caused Nazism has been promoted from the 1930s up to this day, even though it is considered a "flat-out lie"?
  • ALT3:... that the idea that homosexuals caused Nazism was invented by the German left, but since has been taken up by the Christian right?

• Reviewed: Jessye Norman

Created by Buidhe (talk). Self-nominated at 09:45, 13 April 2020 (UTC).

• Comment: @Buidhe: the history section of the article mainly uses print sources. Could you provide a quote from the book (it looks like it's the Marhoefer book) that specifically verifies that this idea originated in the 1930s? MartinPoulter (talk) 15:02, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

• MartinPoulter, Thanks for taking a look at this. The first sentence of the abstract of Oosterhuis: "In the early 1930s, German Social Democrats and Communists seized upon the homosexual orientation of some Nazi leaders, especially Ernst Röhm, with the aim of discrediting the entire National Socialist movement." In the body of the paper, he does not discuss any incidents before 1931. buidhe 16:21, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

 Reviewing... @Buidhe:, I am starting a full review now. Please look for comments soon, and I look forward to working with you again. Cheers! Flibirigit (talk) 01:46, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing:
• Neutral: - ?
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited: - ?
• Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Overall, the article is in decent shape. Please do not be discouraged as it may appear I have a lot of questions. I sincerely do want to see this on the main page. Article created on April 13, and nominated on the same day. Length and sourcing are adequate. Please see hooks and neutrality questions listed below. No plagiarism issues detected. No photo is used in this nomination, but all images used in the article are properly licensed on the commons. QPQ requirement is met. Flibirigit (talk) 02:48, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Hooks questions

1. ALT0 is interesting, but there does not appear to be a citation directly at the end of the sentence which discusses the hook. Also, "blamed for Nazism" is not apparent to beme from the wording "due to the rhetoric and scapegoating employed by the left".
2. ALT1 is also interesting, but I am confused on its citation. It appears to be cited from "The myth is nearly as old as the Nazi party itself", but the party was founded in 1920 and not 1930?
3. ALT2 appears to come from the statement by Jonathan Zimmerman at the end of the "Historicity" section. The phrase "gay people helped bring Nazism to Germany" does not seem to imply "homosexuals caused Nazism". I am not equating "bring Nazism to Germany" with "caused Nazism". Is there a more similar phrasing possible here?
4. ALT3 is most interesting hook to me, but I do not see any specific sentence which cites it. Have I missed something?

Neutrality questions

• Please see general questions below on neutrality. Thanks. Flibirigit (talk) 02:48, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

1.  Done Several statements in the lead section are likely to be challenged. I generally avoid citations in the lead section, but I feel they are warranted here as per WP:LEADCITE, and better to be safe than sorry. Specifically the statement, "Gay fascism is the discredited idea", "had a significant negative influence on its policies or even controlled the party", and "Historians regard the claim as having no merit".
2.  Done In the "Origins" section, the statement "Most leftists, even those who were themselves gay" seem subjective. Is there a way to avoid saying most leftists, or have a citation directly at the end of the sentence which could be challenged?
3.  Done In the "Origins" section, the statement "Bucking the trend, in a polemical essay", seems like a WP:CLICHE violation. Is there a way to change the tone of the phrase?

Friendly suggestions

• These are friendly suggestions, not DYK criteria or failures. Flibirigit (talk) 02:48, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

1.  Done Article seems to be inconsistent with respect to punctuation and quotation marks, see MOS:LQUOTE.
2.  Done In the "Historicity" section, the acronym "SA" is not defined in the article.

Would you be interested in having a rook run on the main page during LGBT Pride Month in June? I feel it would be applicable, and perhaps usage of one of the free licensed photos such as the pink triangle would be relevant and give more exposure. Just a thought. No rush here, take your time as needed. Flibirigit (talk) 03:16, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

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Sydney Gay and Lesbian Holocaust Memorial

• Flibirigit, thanks for the very thorough review. I believe I've addressed 1,2,and 3 (2 by rewriting a bit and directly quoting the supporting text in an invisible comment). I think your pride month idea is a good one and here's a hook that fits the occasion:

• ALT4... that gays and lesbians used the pink triangle (pictured) to counter "the vicious, influential myth" of a connection between Nazism and homosexuality? source buidhe 10:43, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

• I will have a closer look at the changes later today. Flibirigit (talk) 10:55, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

• I will be looking at this off and on today, and likely will not finish in one sitting. I separated the hooks questions above to make it easier to read and follow. Cheers. Flibirigit (talk) 00:18, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

• So far things look good. I have no remaining neutrality concerns, and the friendly suggestions are clear too. Will resume a bit later today. Flibirigit (talk) 01:08, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Follow-up on hooks

1.  Done ALT0 is interesting. It appears to mentioned in the first sentence of the second parapgraph in the "Origins" section. The blame portion of the hook is cited from the subsequent quote. For clarity, I am equating "scapegoat" with "blaming". Verified by AGF on the offline source.
2. ALT1 is interesting, but I am still confused exactly where it is cited. It seems like a summary of the article as a whole, rather than a specific fact mentioned inline. I feel the sentence "The myth is nearly as old as the Nazi party itself" does not lead the reader to equate to 1930s.
3. ALT2 is interesting, but I am still hung up on the phrase "promoted from the 1930s up to this day", see comment on ALT1 above
4.  Done ALT3 is very interesting, properly mentioned and cited in line, and verified by AGF on the offline source.
5.  Done ALT4 is very interesting, properly mentioned and cited in line, and verified by AGF on the offline source. The corresponding photo is clear at a low resolution, properly licensed and enhances the hook well. Hook is suitable as a special occasion for Pride Month in June.

• Buidhe (talk · contribs), tentative approval given for ALT0, ALT3 and ALT4. Would you like to discuss the above comments on ALT1 and ALT2, or go ahead with the other three hooks? Flibirigit (talk) 07:58, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

• Flibirigit, No, I think we're good. Of all the hooks I like ALT4 best (preferably with the picture), then ALT0 and ALT3. Three hooks should be enough! Thanks again for your review. buidhe 08:03, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

• ALT4, ALT3 and ALT0 are approved. Preference for ALT4 with the photo as a special occasion request for Pride Month in June. The article adheres to all other DYK criteria as per my review above. ALT1 and ALT2 have been struck. Flibirigit (talk) 08:10, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Importance Designation

I question the "Low Importance" designation assigned to this page. Georgearnold23 (talk) 23:07, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

change title to homofascism

homofascism is a fairly popular ideology, and the contents of this article seems to be a good candidate for a history section of it.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.245.20.3 (talk) 16:28, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't agree that's it's fairly popular, but insofar as how it's known 'homofascism' is the term people usually use nowadays as opposed to 'gay fascism' FAISSALOO_(talk) 19:12, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm fairly well acquainted with this subject, and not only do I not use this word to describe it, until this moment I had never even encountered the word being used in this context. Where I have heard the word "homofascism", is when used by right-wing Reactionaries as a word to describe their own perception of LGBT rights activists aggressively taking over the narrative of normativity from them.

Nuttyskin (talk) 23:58, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

misleading quote

″In the Soviet Union, Maxim Gorky claimed that "Eradicate homosexuals and fascism will disappear".″ is not a faithful quote as discussed in the article on Gorky [[1]]. The original text 'Proletarian Humanism' states: ″Уже сложилась саркастическая поговорка: «Уничтожьте гомосексуали­ стов — фашизм исчезнет»″ which may be translated as ″There is already a sarcastic saying: «Destroy homosexuals — fascism will disappear»″ (can be found in Russian here http://publ.lib.ru/ARCHIVES/G/GOR%27KIY_Maksim/Gor'kiy_M._Sobranie_sochineniy_v_30_tt._T.27.(1953).[pdf-fax].zip article starts on p. 233, quote is on p. 238) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.103.202.254 (talk) 22:51, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Normalisation of homosexuality in the pre-Nazi era

One of the unexplored areas which might seem to shore up the notion of an early Nazi tolerance of homosexuality, is that in the era directly preceding that of the Nazis, German society seems to have been strangely relaxed in relation to homosexuality, at least in comparison to later.

If I might quote from another article: "The first organized gay rights movement arose in the late nineteenth century in Germany. In the 1920s and into the early 1930s, there were LGBT communities in cities like Berlin; German-Jewish sexologist Magnus Hirschfeld was one of the most notable spokespeople for LGBT rights at this time."(LGBT rights opposition)

The Nineteenth Century saw a gradual acceptance of liberalised attitudes to homosexuality in Germany. This, in tandem with longstanding background attitudes of conservative intolerance, must have led to the situation in Germany just before the Nazis' rise, of a public which had become accustomed to and relaxed towards the fact of its own gay population, almost in spite of itself; while simultaneously remaining culturally completely opposed to such a thing's existence. The general atmosphere of suspicion and paranoia, and the fear of all outsider groups, must have exaggerated this tendency to murderous proportions. Nuttyskin (talk) 00:23, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

This is not unexplored. It is well known that the Nazis hated those relatively liberal Weimar attitudes, which they regarded as "degenerate" and part of a Jewish conspiracy to weaken Germany. They used their opposition to them as a major plank of their pitch for power (in terms shockingly similar to the anti-LGBT rhetoric you will hear used by far-right politicians today) and they made a point of burning Hirschfeld's library almost a soon as they came to power. They were never tolerant of homosexuality in society at large. They were only willing to overlook it in a few of their own members in the short term, while they were perceived as useful, but even they were violently eliminated once they were no longer considered necessary. That was tactical hypocrisy. Nothing else. DanielRigal (talk) 01:01, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Also the Weimar Republic was not as decadent as it is sometimes perceived. It was hardly a paradise for homosexuals either. (t · c) buidhe 01:22, 28 November 2023 (UTC)