Talk:Greater Finland

Terminology

The English term "Finland proper" is equivalent to the Finnish term "Varsinais-Suomi" which is a province of modern Finland making ca. 10% of its land area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.157.191.37 (talk) 19:30, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Not "Finland proper" but "Finland Proper" means that. Kahkonen 10:14, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I hope you can accept this version. Sorry that I made changes without consulting you first. Perhaps the most concrete changes were the addition of the years in question (similarly to the Finnish text), the emphasis that "Greater Finland" was an imaginative constellation and the switch from "Finno-Ugric people" east of the Ural mountains to "Uralic speakers". I take it that You mean the speakers of the Samoyed languages i.e. Nenets, Enets and Selkups etc ? The language they speak is not Finno-Ugric but belong to the Samoyed branch of the Uralic languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.157.191.37 (talk) 06:56, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Tribal wars? Which were the tribes that fought each other please? What was the unstable situation? Please explain further. Are you talking about the Finnish and Russian civil wars perhaps? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.157.191.37 (talk) 13:59, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Tribes: fi:savolaiset, fi:karjalaiset, fi:hämäläiset, varsinaissuomalaiset, kainulaiset... I am talking about just those civil wars. Kahkonen 15:58, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Tribal wars is a poor translation, and we need to find a better one. 217.30.179.130 11:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

The meaning of the term Heimosodat refers to something like war for the finno-ugric tribes against russian, german, swedish, etc... opressing nationalities. It definately does not refer to a civil war or the actual war of 1918 in Finland between finns. Translation Tribal wars tends to have another meaning, associating with civil wars between tribes especially in some African countries. 84.239.129.42 (talk • contribs) — Preceding undated comment added 16:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

In heimosodat article we decided to keep name "heimosodat" because there is not established English term for those conflicts. Kahkonen 08:43, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

- - - - - -

During the Viking Age - for one - the Finnish Karelians fought, with and without the assistance of some Slavic elements, against the Finnish Kvens up north - and as it seems, quite south as well. The Kvens were supported by the Norse, at least from time to time.

Later on the Karelians and the Kvens cooperated against the Norse, and - as the time went on -against the Slavic groups as well.

This at least according to the Viking sagas and chronicles, as well as other historical writings and documentation. If the sagas and other chronicles of the Viking period - or the related history writings from later times - are not to be believed, nor the archeological escavations or the sociological, linguistic or other research, what is then ?

This juxtapositioning and the latest archeological findings and the newest DNA reserch indeed have recently brought more scientists to review the Finnic contributions in the founding of Moscow, Kiev, etc. - among other things.

The electorinic media and the current computer age of ours have helped in the correction work of many myths. - January 26, 2006 - — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.216.199.2 (talk) 15:15, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

All this has absolutely nothing to do with the irredentist Greater Finland-ideology of the 20th century. Please do not mix issues. Clarifer — Preceding undated comment added 15:41, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Question

Why would the Kola peninsula and St. Petersburg region considered part of GF. I never heard of The Kola peninsula in history being part of Finland. St. Petersburg, and Estonia regions are also kinda strange to see Babur^☺ 19:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they have never been parts of Finland (as well East Karelia wasn't). But, behind of this is so called natural borders (plants distribution, rivers, isthmuses etc), which include Kola and East Karelia. Why Estonia and Ingria are included? Because there live(d) Finnish related people and GF ideologists included them to GF. Yes: article should improved. :-) Kahkonen 20:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The Kola peninsula is eastern Lapland, lands of Lapps (Saami), not Finns. And St. Petersburg located in Ingermanland, lands of Ingrians (Izhorians), not Finns. UeArtemis (talk) 13:53, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Lapland

Ingermanland

In fact, Ingrians ARE Finns (the Finnish population in Ingermanland originated in the 17th century). Izhorians are a distinct Finnic people.--91.152.196.68 (talk) 17:45, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Unreferenced

Added the Unreferenced template. Doonhamer Banter 23:12, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Translation needed

Hi, so if you've noticed on the Finnish article for this, the article there is well written and would be good to translate to English for those that don't know Finnish. If anybody is willing to help translation of the page to proper English, do so at my sandbox page. McLennonSon (talk) 09:38, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

1940

The first President of Estonia, Konstantin Päts, wished for a unified country in his political testament of 1940, writing the outline of a unification plan.

--

Should this be added somewhere? JonSonberg (talk) 03:26, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

References

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Merger proposal

I propose merging Pan-Finnicism into Greater Finland. In the article Pan-Finnicism, it is claimed that [Pan-Finnicism] is different from the Greater Finland idea for its more "equal tone" to the different ethnicities of the Finnic peoples, but if we read the quotation from Topelius in that same article, he is telling us that Within such a Pan-Finnic community, the Finnish nation should hold the leading position. There does not seem to be any difference in tone. Even if there was, one could handle such narrow spectrum of ideologies in one article. Merging would also improve Greater Finland since it is lacking in ideological background, which Pan-Finnicism would provide. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 22:13, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Of course, but what Topelius said is just a variation of Pan-Finnicism, which could be attributed as a type of Greater Finland endorsing comment, but it don't think this one nitpick is honestly a good enough reason to merge these two, as Pan-Finnicism is a still more alive ideology, than Greater Finland is, in the grand scheme of things. Greater Finland ideology was the wishful thinking of Finnish nationalists during ww2 with it viewing the very Karelians which it thought it was liberating as just another sub-group of Finn. Pan-Finnicism is more equal because: 1. No Estonian, Karelian or Veps will ever advocate for a Greater Finland at which Helsinki is at its complete helm, which Greater Finland promotes because it views these different types of Finnic peoples as weaker than the Finns and therefore needing the protection of Finland. 2. Pan-Finnicism is not just a ideology of uniting all these people into a single ethnostate, but cooperation due to respect for the other Finnic peoples due for them being part of the shared larger Finnic ethnic group, so Pan-Finnicism is not limited to territory but also economic and military cooperation, which for the case of Greater Finland, is in favour of out-right territorial annexation of the other Baltic-Finns. IkuTurisas (talk) 18:29, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I think you might want to add some references and discussion about the kinship ideology, as the article text is currently quite focused on the Greater Finland idea with pictures of soldiers etc. Pan-Finnicism is also defined in the introduction as an irredentist idea, which the WP article defines as involving annexation, again invoking the idea of a Greater Finland. The basic question is: When was such an equal-tone idea advocated, and by who? My impression is that most of the sources actually associate the term Pan-Finnicism with the Greater Finland idea, so I am wondering whether Finno-Ugrism or 'Finno-Ugrian kinship' would a more appropriate term here? Or is that different from what you have in mind? Jähmefyysikko (talk) 20:42, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Alright, will do. For the question if Finno-Ugrism would be a more appropriate term, it comes down to which people groups the pan-nationalist ideology accepts within it's ideology to seek to unify with. Pan-Finnicism of course is more limited to those very Finnic peoples, and in my opinion and from what i've seen its more common than that of Finno-Ugrism. So I think Pan-Finnicism is more limited from Finno-Ugrism in its scope and therefore these two terms shouldn't be interchangeable. IkuTurisas (talk) 14:17, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

@Jähmefyysikko also I removed the template because this discussion has basically been completed, so Pan-Finnicism won't be merged with Greater Finland since the Greater Finland topic is a Finnish nationalist idea about conquering those peoples which it sees as fit, not a pan-nationalist ideology. IkuTurisas (talk) 14:14, 22 January 2024 (UTC)