Talk:Horatio Hornblower

"Ships Featured" section reworked to become "Rank and Ships"

I've just reworked "Ships Featured" to become "Rank and Ships". The old table included much repetition of novel titles and ranks which is simplified by merging table cells in those columns.

I've removed the "End of commission" column since it was wide, added little value, and the entries were often dubious, uncertain, or not really applicable. The material is available in the story plot summaries.

I've removed Roebuck and Phoebe and added Princess and Pretty Jane. My criteria have been to list all ships that Hornblower was either aboard or commanded and receive a substantial number of mentions in the novels. Other candidate vessels considered and rejected are:

• Pique, French Privateer
• Sophia, Transport
• Syrtis, Frigate
• Queen Charlotte, Canal Boat
• Aquila, Transport
• Victory, 1st Rate
• Camilla, 36-gun Frigate
• Clement, Brig
• Phoebe, Frigate
• Roebuck, Frigate
• Flora, Sloop of war? (commanded by a captain)

I've replaced some details of gun numbers and types with a "?" where the previously quoted values can't be determined from Forester or history. Where Forester conflicts with history (e.g., all 74s had 32-pounder main batteries, and Atropos' carronades would have been 32-pounders as on HMS Cossack) I've gone with Forester. In addition, I've specified whether the guns are cannon, carronades or mortars.

I've removed mention of "commodore" because it was not a rank, but an appointment. Similarly, I've expanded "rear-admiral" to show "rear-admiral of the blue", "rear-admiral of the white" and "rear-admiral of the red" because these are distinct ranks. West Indies clearly mentions the last two ranks and usually, but not always, the first promotion from captain will be to rear-admiral of the blue.

The new table includes a (mostly) hidden first column which is present just to work around an issue with HTML tables with overlapping "rowspan"ed cells in adjacent columns.

Jaa101 (talk) 04:20, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

I have changed Hornblower's rank at the end of Lieutenant Hornblower from Acting to Temporary Commander. My understanding is that "Acting X" is a deliberate decision intended to preserve the substantive rank while acting at a higher rank, as with Acting Lieutenant for Hornblower. His promotion at the end of LH was intended to be a substantive appointment but was not confirmed, something different. "Temporary Commander" is the term Forester puts into H's mouth in the book.Johnstoo (talk) 14:56, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I have added a diagram attempting to capture the Hornblower chronology. We all know that there are inconsistencies in the timeline; I have tried to be pragmatic and have treated Forester's account in "The Hornblower Companion" as the best version we have of his intent. I don't think it is possible to make sense of the exact timeline of H's temporary promotion to Commander then his reversion to Lieutenant within "Lieutenant Hornblower", but fortunately that affects only the internal timing, the start and end of the book are clear enough. Jaa101: I acknowledge what you say about splitting Rear Admiral into the separate ranks, but I don't think we have information on the relevant dates so I have not tried to include that detail. If anyone feels there are other places where I've got something wrong or have made the wrong choice from alternative dates, I am very happy to edit and produce a consensus version.Johnstoo (talk) 11:58, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for this, but a few points. On the technical side, have you read Wikipedia:How to create charts for Wikipedia articles? It would be much better to have an SVG version if you can manage that; in particular, that makes it much easier for others to edit. Also, "it is best if color coding is not the only thing that differentiates parts of the graph ..."

On the content side:

• The Hand of Destiny is around November 1796. Spain declared war on Britain on 5 October 1796 so The Spanish Galleys must have been at least some days after that and The Examination for Lieutenant is explicitly in December.
• Atropos ends around late September 1806.
• Companion is very untrustworthy for dates. Forester seems to have done, at best, only a cursory rereading of his original stories while writing it in 1963, many years later.
• I agree about not detailing the various rear-admiral ranks. There's no mention of his ever having been a rear-admiral of the blue and, while he must have became a rear-admiral before sailing for Jamaica in mid-1820, the records show plenty of examples of officers who skipped over that rank. He's implied to be a rear-admiral of the white in The Guns of Carabobo of June 1821 and he's definitely a rear-admiral of the red by the end of his appointment around June 1823.Jaa101 (talk) 00:16, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. I am not a historian - my interest (besides enjoying (most of) the stories) is the exercise of assembling and presenting information. So I am very happy to follow your lead on the dates. I first did this a few years ago based on the books. I then more recently thought I ought to check with "Companion" and changed a few things accordingly, but was puzzled because the Companion dates seemed to contradict the stories in places. If we're willing to say that the stories are primary and Companion is secondary, that simplifies matters!

Specifically: Atropos is the prime example. I agree with your dates based on the story (and have changed back my graph to what I originally had) but Companion clearly says it is set later.

On Hand of Destiny, I am happy to go with your date, but I actually think it cannot be reconciled with the rest of the canon and in some ways it would be more honest to say so.

I am aware of the limitations of using colour alone to convey information. I toyed with an alternative of indicating each promotion by gradient shading (a simple line doesn't really work because it doesn't stand out enough). The drawback is that we can no longer use gradient shading to indicate the uncertainty of the promotion dates Captain to Rear Admiral and to Admiral of the Fleet. I offer them both here (as SVGs). If we develop a preference, or if further improvements are made, one of us can post it to the main page.

Thanks again.

Original format, revised dates for Hand and Atropos

Alternative format

Johnstoo (talk) 14:44, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

As a temporary measure, I've switched the version in the article to the non-colour option here. I'm open to further changes.Johnstoo (talk) 15:30, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@Johnstoo @Jaa101 I am sorry, this section is unreferenced WP:FANCRUFT/WP:TRIVIA. I am removing it. I appreciate the effort put into this, but this belongs on fandom (https://hornblower.fandom.com/wiki/Main_Page), not Wikiepdia. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:09, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Captain Hornblower R.N

I have added to the omnibus editions that an omnibus edition Captain Hornblower R.N was published in 1939 in the UK by Michael Joseph in parallel, I assume, with the Captain Horatio Hornblower published by Little Brown. It too contains The Happy Return, A Ship of the Line and Flying Colours. As with many of the other Michael Joseph editions, a cheaper Reprint Society edition was printed the following year, in 1940. My source is the copy in front of me — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.170.240.200 (talk) 10:48, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Historical figures section

... seems fairly trivial. Any opposition to deleting it? Clarityfiend (talk) 02:54, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

@Clarityfiend I independently did it and then noticed your post. This article has too much unreferenced fancrufty plot summary and too little scholarly analysis :( _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:59, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

What statements require further citations?

This article received a more citations needed template in May 2021. I'm not sure what sections or statements require further references? can you help Piotrus? Newystats (talk) 09:16, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

@Newystats: There are still plenty of unrefenced sentences; such as the entire "Characteristics" section. Or the "Historical figures in the novels" section, which probably should just be deleted as fancruft anyway. PS. I'll try to remember to help here a bit, since I got a copy of The True Story of Horatio Hornblower a while ago. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:54, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

@Newystats I've done a few fixes, cut some fancruft (more remains), and added a bunch of reliable sources for interested readers to expand this (there are more), as well as, sadly, numerous tags to indicate problems. This article is still in a very bad shape. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:15, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! Newystats (talk) 05:11, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Split into article about the book series and a character?

We should consider whether the topic of Horatio Hornblower series is separately notable, or whether this shouldn't be rewritten as such. Bibliography, much of legacy, is about the series, not character. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:08, 17 November 2022 (UTC)