Talk:James McNeill Whistler

Untitled

Things that should definitely be added to the article:

• Courbet.
• Joanna Hiffernan.

Sam Hocevar 03:03, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely!

Should this be cut?

"After the Ruskin trial, everything he mentioned or wrote about his work, and especially everything he told his biographers was done in a way in which he could dissociate himself from the English school of painting. His main purpose was to lose any relations he had with the couple of enemies he had made among the Royal Academicians, and the artists who he had been close to during the 1860's. Despite his attempts to give the notion that he did not belong to any school, he is without a doubt one of the few Victorian painters who is known for revitalizing the 'grand manner' of British painting. [James McNeil Whistler, 23]"

The quotation doesn't seem to bear on any particular source, and it makes unverified and unsupported statements about Whistler's activities after the trial - some that I think definitely incorrect, having read contemporary articles in the New York Times wishing that Whistler would visit the country as he and his work did so infrequently.

Also: I'd like to link these articles (about Whistler's publication of The Gentle Art of Making Enemies, and another individual attack on a critic) to show more of his biting wit, and further add to the biographical detail which is really quite sparse.

I'd also like to resolve some of the bizarre page sections. It makes no sense to me why the moderate success of Whistler's Mother is recorded as the first section of his Controversies.

I'd like to discover some sources about what it was of the White Girl that caused controversy. Cartoons show it as being a notable inclusion in the Salon des Refuses, and I know it was liked by some. I don't know that it received any note-worthy, negative review. And I'll place the painting in its correct place on the page.

Finally, I'd think it best to note the uncertainty of the identification of Jo as the lady in Courbet's L'Origine du monde. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ocarrollcian (talk • contribs) 01:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC) Ocarrollcian 02:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Cut this

"An initiator in his own generation, and ever tastefully experimental, Whistler no doubt has found enjoyment in the variety of the mediums he has worked in, and in the variety of subjects he has brilliantly tackled. The absence of concentration in the Whistlerian temperament, the lack of great continuity of effort, may probably prove a drawback to his taking exactly the place as a painter of oil pictures, which, in other circumstances, his genius and his taste would most certainly have secured for him. In the future Whistler must be accounted, in oil painting, a master exquisite but rare. But the number and the range of his etched subjects and the extraordinary variety of perception and of skill which he has brought to bear upon the execution of his nearly three hundred coppers, ensure, and have indeed already compassed, the acceptance of him as a master among masters in that art of etching. Rembrandt's, Van Dyck's, Meryon's, Claude's, are, in fact, the only names which there is full warranty for pronouncing beside his own."

I cut the above because it seems more like a review or an exhibition pamphlet paragraph, than encylopedia material. --sparkit (talk) 03:44, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

On 16th September 2005, a bronze life-sized statue of whistler was unveiled on the north side of Battersea Bridge, London. There was no prior announcement of this event, so it is not known if any dignitory was present.

And this

I have also cut the following paragraph as unduly subjective. This, and the snippit above, appear to have been taken verbatim from the 1911 Britannica. --Worldofdew 13:05, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

"Of these, the main characteristics are precision and vivacity; freedom, flexibility, infinite technical resource, at the service always of the most alert and comprehensive observation; an eye that no picturesqueness of light and shade, no interesting grouping of line, can ever escape — an eye, that is emancipated from conventionality, and sees these things therefore with equal willingness in a cathedral and a mass of scaffolding, in a Chelsea shop and in a suave nude figure, in the facade of a Flemish palace and in a "great wheel" at West Kensington"..." Some of the lithographs are of figures slightly draped; two or three of the very finest are of Thames subjects — including a "nocturne" at Limehouse, of unimaginable and poetic mystery; others are bright and dainty indications of quaint prettiness in the old Faubourg St Germain, and of the sober lines of certain Georgian churches in Soho and Bloomsbury."

Opening section

What does this mean?

for Whistler embraced a refined aesthetic while at the same time wielding a formidable public persona

Surely this could be reworded into something clearer. WhiteCat 07:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• The line has been rewritten. JNW 10:27, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Unrelated passage

I've reverted the following passage about the marvelous Valparaiso painting. It had no obvious relationship to the heading 'Controversies', and its prominence and subsequent need for mention were not explained. Maybe when the bio is expanded to include further mention of Whistler's travels to S. America...JNW (talk) 22:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Whistler, who was traveling on board an American ship, painted his famous "Nocturne in Blue and Gold: Valparaiso Bay" (1866) the night before the Valparaiso bombardment. It shows the Chilean merchant fleet at their moorings waiting to be destroyed by the Spaniards.

New file File:James Abbott McNeill Whistler by Walter Greaves.jpg

Recently the file File:James Abbott McNeill Whistler by Walter Greaves.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 00:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Dcoetzee. A better and more famous portrait of Whistler is by Chase: [1] JNW (talk) 00:32, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Not a problem, up to your editorial discretion. :-) Dcoetzee 06:20, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Date of birth

The article, matching the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, gives a date of birth of 10th July 1834. The New York Times here, http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/20080714.html , says 14th July.

Which is right? ChapterandVerse (talk) 19:00, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

TIME and the World Almanac also cite July 10 as his dob. However, letters from Whistler's mother (http://www.whistler.arts.gla.ac.uk/correspondence/date/display/?cid=6511&year=1861&month=07&rs=1) confirm that July 11 is his dob. Kapooz (talk) 23:16, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think such a letter is conclusive. She may have started it on 10 July, was interrupted, and finished it on 11 July. The birthdate of 11 July is not supported by any reputable sources, is it? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 09:33, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I looked at the International Dictionary of Art and Artists, Almanac of Famous People, Encyclopedia of World Biography, Dictionary of American Biography, and Merriam Webster's Biographical Dictionary. They all say July 10th. I am changing and citing those sources. --LibraryGurl (talk) 19:15, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Now it's been changed to 11 July, with the edit summary quoting various apparently good sources. Unfortunately, the unregistered editor changed the infobox and the main text, but not the lede. Either way, this now needs urgent attention. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:26, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

I wonder if he was born near midnight. Reliable sources have given either date since at least 1910 (as in this Met catalogue from 1910). Joseph Pennell knew him well; his biography of Whistler gives July 10 as the birthdate. So does Kate McDiarmid in Whistler's Mother: Her Life, Letters, and Journals, (1936), p. 26, evidently either distrusting or overlooking the evidence of the birthday letters. Victoria Charles (James McNeill Whistler, 2011, p. 9) has July 10. Other reliable sources, including Oxford art Online, have July 11. I see that I've previously supported July 11 myself, citing Encyclopedia Britannica. I don't have Daniel Sutherland's book handy, and haven't seen Sutherland and Georgia Toutziari's Whistler's Mother: Portrait of an Extraordinary Life (2018), but they apparently support the 11th. My impression was that 21st-century sources were favoring July 10 rather decisively, but that seems not to be the case after all. Further comment invited. Ewulp (talk) 00:31, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

American National Biography also has July 11. Ewulp (talk) 01:43, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Birthdate: more sources

Our article currently cites five tertiary sources for the July 10 birthdate; the July 11 birthdate is supported by two tertiary sources and two primary sources. I visited the library to see if secondary sources could be of help here. I particularly wanted to know if any of Whistler's biographers have explained why there has been such confusion about the artist's birthdate. I discovered only one that addressed this (more on that later). Otherwise, every book simply stated one or the other of the dates. Here are the findings.

For July 10, 1834:

• Eddy, Arthur Jerome. 1904. Recollections and Impressions of James A. McNeill Whistler
• Pearson, Hesketh. 1952. The Man Whistler
• Sweet, Frederick A. 1968. James McNeill Whistler: Paintings, Pastels, Watercolours, Drawings, Etchings, Lithographs
• Walker, John. 1987. James McNeill Whistler

For July 11, 1834:

• Prideaux, Tom. 1970. The World of Whistler, 1834-1903
• McMullen, Roy. 1973. Victorian Outsider: A Biography of J.A.M. Whistler
• Spencer, Robin. 1990. Whistler
• Fleming, G.H. 1991. James Abbott McNeill Whistler: A Life
• Peters, Lisa N. 1996. James McNeill Whistler
• Anderson, Ronald, and Anne Koval. 1994. James McNeill Whistler: Beyond the Myth
• Grieve, A. I. 2000. Whistler's Venice
• Weintraub, Stanley. 2001. Whistler: A Biography
• Sutherland, Daniel E. 2018. Whistler: A Life for Art's Sake

and finally

• Laver, James. 1976. Whistler

This last was the one that addressed the confusion. A footnote after "July 11" reads: "A letter written by Whistler's father to his brother-in-law, General Joseph Gardner Whistler, two days after the birth of the child places this beyond doubt, although, strangely enough, Mrs. Whistler in a diary which she kept at St. Petersburg, records celebrating 'Jamie's' birthday on July 10th, and this date is the one usually given."

It will be noted that the more recent books favor July 11. All of this, plus the evidence of Anna Matilda Whistler's letters in the database of University of Glasgow [2] makes me think we should relegate July 10 to a footnote. Ewulp (talk) 04:24, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Another new file

A very high-resolution work of James Whistler (La Princesse du pays de la porcelaine) from the Google Art Project (left). Feel free to use if useful. Dcoetzee 10:11, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Alexander Koritsky

I'm from Russia and not well know English language. Please excuse me. I would like to somebody, who has good knowledge of the English language, add in section "Russia and England" information, that the name of the artist, who gave drawing lessons to James Abbott Whistler was Alexander Koritsky. That is my article in Russian WIKI about this artist: Alexander O. Koritsky Here is the link to the magazine article in English about their friendship: Galina Andreeva "Whistler and Russia" /Magazine "THE TRETYAKOV GALLERY" special issue 2011. I am a descendant of the brother of Alexander Koritsky.--User:Anford (talk) 07:38, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

File:Whistler Selbstporträt.jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Whistler Selbstporträt.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on July 17, 2012. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2012-07-17. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! —howcheng {chat} 17:14, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Picture of the day

Arrangement in Gray: Portrait of the Painter, a self-portrait painting by American-born British-based artist James Abbot McNeill Whistler (1834–1903). Whistler, best known for the painting Whistler's Mother, was the founder of the tonalist movement in art, a leader in the Aesthetic Movement and a proponent of "art for art's sake". Born in Lowell, Massachusetts, he lived in Russia, England, and the US in his youth, studied art in France, and finally moved permanently to London in 1859. He was highly influential and during his life, he affected two generations of artists, in Europe and in the US.

Requested move 07 April 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Apparently already done (non-admin closure) Red Slash 04:27, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

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James Abbott McNeill Whistler → James McNeill Whistler – references on the page do not use Abbott – GregKaye 22:07, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). LibraryGurl (talk) 00:14, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• Object: I believe that most sources include his middle name (Abbott) in some way, especially encyclopedias. --LibraryGurl (talk) 00:14, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

LibraryGurl The references in the article that I saw refer to "James McNeill Whistler"
For sources in books see:

• Ngrams James McNeill Whistler,James Abbott McNeill Whistler

For scholar see results:

• ("James Abbott McNeill Whistler" OR "James McNeill Whistler") AND (painter OR artist)

For encyclopaedias see Britannica:

• James McNeill Whistler (American artist)

Whistler, James McNeill American artist in full James Abbott McNeill Whistler ...

Other uses vary:

• http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/James_Abbott_McNeill_Whistler.aspx uses: James Abbott McNeill Whistler;
• http://www.notablebiographies.com/We-Z/Whistler-James.html uses: James Whistler
• http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/James_McNeill_Whistler uses: James McNeill Whistler

GregKaye 05:01, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

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American people of English descent

One English grandmother, was it so rare in the USA at that time?Xx236 (talk) 05:50, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Works not mentioned

Today I visited the Hunterian Museum at the University of Glasgow. Here they have a large gallery with a large number of his works, none of which are mentioned in this article. They also have some of his furniture and painting equipment. The Hunterian claim that this is the preeminent Whistler collection in the world. Perhaps this should be investigated. ````Don Messenger Oct 10,2016 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.136.63.208 (talk) 18:48, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

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Orphaned references in James Abbott McNeill Whistler

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of James Abbott McNeill Whistler's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "W1":

• From Maud Franklin: University of Glasgow
• From Rembrandt: White, 200

Reference named "glasgow":

• From Joanna Hiffernan: [3] 'The Correspondence of James McNeill Whistler' University of Glasgow Whistler Archive
• From Bessie MacNicol: "Self-portrait by Bessie MacNicol". The Glasgow Story. Retrieved 2014-12-06.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 04:32, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20031230060225/http://iupjournals.org/victorian/vic42-4.html to http://iupjournals.org/victorian/vic42-4.html
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Animal skin in 'Symphony in White No 1' (section Early career)

This article describes the skin as a bear skin, but the Good Article on the painting itself from the start calls it a wolf skin and the head a wolf's. I would correct it but would like to gauge the view of others who may have a keener eye for animals and furs than I have as to whether it should be changed from 'bear' to 'wolf'.Cloptonson (talk) 08:43, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Additional source

Ran across this:

• MacDonald, Margaret Flora (2015). "James McNeill Whistler: An Artist on Artists". Visual Culture in Britain. 16 (2). doi:10.1080/14714787.2015.1038437.

 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:26, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 25 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) SilverLocust 💬 14:10, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

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James Abbott McNeill Whistler → James McNeill Whistler – WP:COMMONNAME see for example the articles in Britannica, The Met, The National Gallery of Art, and the catalogue raisonee at the University of Glasgow. I am discounting The Tate because their article is a copy of ours and so cannot be used as a source for anything. DuncanHill (talk) 09:45, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Very definite common name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:44, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support per above. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:11, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support. See also the Union List of Artist Names and the Google Ngram. Ham II (talk) 10:43, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.