Talk:John Wesley Harding

Citation needed for chord progression?

There is a {{cn}} on the statement that "All Along the Watchtower" has a VI - V - IV chord progression. Actually, it's VIm - V - IV - V, so I will we should probably correct it. I believe Dylan plays it Am - G - F - G and Hendrix plays it Cm - B♭ - A♭ - B♭. But how on earth do you cite for such a thing? Cite the sheet music, or what? - Jmabel | Talk 04:28, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Looking further, though, I notice that the article claims that the same chord progression is found in "Hurricane" (pretty certain it's not) and "Stairway to Heaven" (where, indeed it is). And I'm not sure why it's relevant to mention that a similar progression occurs in the Who's intro to "Fiddle About" (given that it occurs only in the intro). I really don't know what to do with this. - Jmabel | Talk 04:37, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Legacy section

The legacy section shifts into a partial biography of Dylan and I think should be cleaned up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtdunlop (talk • contribs) 13:37, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 24 November 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:50, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

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• John Wesley Harding (album) → John Wesley Harding
• John Wesley Harding → John Wesley Harding (disambiguation)

– This album is the primary topic. The only other shared titles are the album's title track and a midly notable singer-songwriter who himself is named after this album. John Wesley Harding is a misspelling of John Wesley Hardin, but that is hardly a reason to disambiguate this page's title. This album being the primary topic is obvious to anyone familiar with the subject, but can be further shown with pageview stats. Also per WP:TWODABS, disambiguation should be done through hatnote links, particularly to a moved John Wesley Harding (disambiguation). Οἶδα (talk) 04:58, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Note: John Wesley Harding titles a dab page with significant content and so is ineligible to be a "new" title in a move request unless it is also renamed. This request has been altered to reflect that fact. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 10:43, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose leave well alone. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:25, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
  • This album's notability far exceeds that of its title track or of the similarly-named singer, making it the primary topic. The album's page holds 85 percent of pageviews in comparison to the two others. Usage in English reliable sources favor the album,[1] following its release [2]. This misspelled title derives directly from Dylan and has maintained its notability over any subsequent others. Οἶδα (talk) 21:39, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Missing track

the track "I Am a Lonesome Hobo" is not listed here, why?

edit: I fixed it, you guys listed the second track twice

Release date (December 17? The 27th?)

My reason for my edit is because the 27th date, compared to the 17th, does not have a source in this article, aside from perhaps Discogs, where I saw several pressings with this exact date (there is no Discogs reference in this article). If needed, I hope a discussion will be fruitful enough to close this little book shut, or to have the 27th date given a citation. Someone added a related invisible comment; It's posted here for quicker reference.

"December 27th seems like a wrong date, since many people verify remembering buying the album before Christmas, 1967. Some have thought that perhaps the date of December 27 might be a later typo, by one digit, and the actual date perhaps might be December 17. As it turns out, on the Bob Dylan Mono LP & CD Box Set, the booklet with the box set lists the release date for John Wesley Harding as being December 17, 1967. In addition, the December 27 release date doesn't seem to make much sense from a marketing standpoint. This was the first new studio album from Dylan in a year and a half, so it would seem that Columbia would be interested in as early a release date as possible. With the final recording session for the album being completed on November 29, 1967, the December 17 date seems to make much more sense in order to take full advantage of Christmas shoppers. The Christmas shopping season was well past over by December 27." Carlinal (talk) 07:18, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

And no, I haven't applied this edit on the articles for the album's tracks. If the 17th date is confirmed it'll be applied to them thusly. Carlinal (talk) 22:44, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Carlinal: Pardon the late reply. My take is that pinning down the specific release date is hopeless since reliable sources disagree widely. Bjorner's Ain't Going Nowhere and Margotin/Guesdon's Bob Dylan: All the Songs (not found online) both cite Dec. 27. Fraser's Searching for a Gem starts out with the 27th citing bobdylan.com, which currently gives only '67. But then he offers several other possibilities: Columbia's Stereo LP, Jan. 5; Hinton's Bob Dylan Complete Discography. Jan. 68; and finally, a NY Times article (available only to subscribers) that indicates the album "went on sale" (hit the stores) Jan.5, which is hardly a release date. Discogs, btw, does the same with some trimming so they may have borrowed from Gem.

Jan. 68 is inviting since like the 27th, it has multiple sources. Dec. 17 also has its appeal, though it has but one source, the Mono booklet. The liner notes were written by Greil Marcus, but that doesn't mean he was responsible for the dates. That said, assuming a typo or relying on reasoning concerning Christmas or the final recording date, doesn't confirm anything. Here's some counter speculation, a rhetorical question: is it possible with a release by a major artist to edit and okay the tapes, cut the master, press the vinyl, finalize the design, print the covers, package everything, etc. in 18 days?

Frankly, IMO, the most honest approach would be to go with both the 17th and 27th or the 27th and Jan. 68, backed by their respective citations with an accompanying footnote that mentions the other possibility. As bet-hedging as that might be, it's far more scholarly since we don't know for certain and apparently neither does anyone else. That's the real story, and it strike me as mis-leading to indicate any one of these possibilities holds significant sway over the other. Allreet (talk) 19:30, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Reverted to December 27

I've researched the release date thoroughly, and as I indicated above, there's lots of disagreement. But as I also said, and further confirmed, there's only one source out of the dozens I checked for December 17. Here's what I found:

1967 (no specific date)

• Rolling Stone, 500 Greatest Albums
• Heylin (UK), Revolution in the Air

Dec 17, 1967

• Mono CD booklet

Dec 27, 1967

• Rolling Stone, Bob Dylan: The Complete Album Guide
• Margotin/Guesdon (French), Bob Dylan: All the Songs
• Bjorner (Swede), Ain't Going Nowhere
• Traeger, Keys to the Rain
• Heylin (UK), The Recording Sessions
• Spitz, Dylan: A Biography
• Bell (UK), Once Upon a Time: Lives of Bob Dylan
• Hughes, Invisible Now: Bob Dylan in the 1960s
• P. Williams, Bob Dylan: Performing Artist

1967 Christmas

• Epstein, The Ballad of Bob Dylan

1968 (no specific date)

• Gray (UK), Bob Dylan Encyclopedia
• Gray/Bauldie (UK), All Along the Telegraph
• Strong (UK), Great Folk Discography
• Walters/Mansfield (UK), Folk: Essential Album Guide
• Cott, Dylan
• Shelton, No Direction Home

Jan 1968

• Hinton (UK), Bob Dylan Complete Discography

Jan 5, 1968

• Fraser, Searching for Gem
• Discogs

Feb 1968

• Gill (UK), Bob Dylan: The Stories Behind the Songs

Mar 1968

• R. Williams (UK), Bob Dylan: A Man Called Alias

Note that only two UK authors cite Dec. 27, while all other British/Scottish authors tend to favor 1968, which as we know was when it was released in Great Britain, on Feb. 23. To sum up things, the count runs in favor of Dec. 27 in general, and heavily if you compare it to other particular dates, as opposed to sources that generalize by giving just the year or month/year. It's also a dead heat between 1967 and 1968, but that's inconsequential given what I just mentioned about the UK/US difference. In any case, it's unlikely other specific dates will crop up. As for Dec. 17, I doubt even one more source will be found to support it.
Not now, but I'll add three different citations for each occurrence of Dec. 27 just to discourage a future change. Based on the research I just did, I also believe the Release Dates section needs a rewrite. The main controversy, if there is one, is here, meaning we can point out the differences but shouldn't make it sound as if there's a heated debate. Few authors if any really care.