Talk:King Ottokar's Sceptre

Untitled

Syldavian may be a Germanic language, but there's no indication about the position of the STRESS of each word. As a rule, the FIRST syllable must be stressed on most words. However, in a book entitled 'Le Tournesol Illustré', some Syldavian or Bordurian words are accompanied by a phonetic alphabet that represents the FRENCH pronunciation. The latter must be wrong. As a matter of fact, French-speaking people systematically put the stress on the LAST syllable! This has the effect of distorting the 'real' pronunciation of Syldavian or Bordurian.

Release date help needed

The official tintin website mentions the release date as 1942, conflicting with the entry. Please enlighten.--54UV1K 08:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Eneny nations

Was United States really an enemy nation when this was released? America did not get involed in the war until the end of 1941, so I can't imagine ZGermany had any quarrell with America at that time —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.168.213.99 (talk) 10:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

It was clear from at least 1939, and particularly from the start of the lend-lease program (when the US basically gave Britain warships to help it out) that the US was unfriendly, at best, to the Nazis. - DavidWBrooks 13:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Wink to the camera

In my book, Tintin winks to the camera in frame 2, page 62, not frame 8. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.82.145.137 (talk) 08:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC).

June 5 edit

The article now has spelling and grammar improvements, and as some of these humble changes were a matter of style, feel free to change back any single one of them. As long as the article is improved in the processes, I am in favour of it. Brilliant job on the state of the article now; recent edits have the article brought up to a higher quality. FYI: Bibliography is now ready for the article to contain three more citations to the following authors: Apostolidès|2010, Goddin|2010, McCarthy|2006 (if not to be, then they may be deleted from the bibliography). Cheers. Prhartcom (talk) 14:06, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Cheers Prhartcom, am adding those references in now, and will then nominate for GAR. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:34, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Let me know if I can lend a hand in any way, i.e. to cite Goddin Vol. 2; I have it right here. Prhartcom (talk) 18:16, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

A few points

There are a few issues that I've noticed with this page, but since I don't have access to any of the references currently in use, I don't feel equipped to make any changes on my own. More significantly than that, I know that @Midnightblueowl: has put in a considerable amount of work on all of theTintin articles, and so I feel that it would probably be ideal for her to address these issues herself, however she sees fit.

• First of all, the second paragraph of the "Background" section claims that this was second only to The Blue Lotus in Tintin stories that "draw specifically on contemporary events". However, as I'm sure you know, The Broken Ear preceded King Ottokar's Sceptre and was inspired by a real life war that had been waged in South America the very same year as the former comic's publication. Does Pierre Assouline not view the Chaco War as being contemporary to The Broken Ear, since it ended about six months before Herge began writing his story? That seems like a stretch to me. Obviously, we have to stick by the references, but at the same time, we don't want to report misinformation.
  • You're right here; I'm guessing that this was probably just an error on Assouline's behalf. Maybe we could alter the article prose to something like "This was not the first Tintin adventure to draw specifically on contemporary events; Hergé had for instance previously made use of the 1931 Japanese invasion of Manchuria as a political backdrop for the setting in The Blue Lotus." That way we keep the basic information, but without the inaccurate claim? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:52, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
    • I would be fine with that change. Alternatively, if many subsequent Tintin stories are inspired by specific contemporary events, and if you would like to preserve the fact that King Ottokar's Sceptre was one of the earliest to do so, then I would be fine with something along the lines of - "This was one of the earliest Tintin adventures to draw specifically on contemporary events, following such stories as The Blue Lotus, which made use of the 1931 Japanese invasion of Manchuria as a political backdrop for its setting." I'll leave the decision up to you. --Jpcase (talk) 20:53, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
      • I've made a change to the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:37, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
        • Thank you for correcting this! :) --Jpcase (talk) 15:45, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• I've recently read the Little, Brown and Company edition of this comic, which carries some notes in the back. If memory serves, one of these notes suggests that Syldavian history actually parallels Romanian history. Although I don't remember anything being said about Poland, it's certainly possible that both countries served as an influence.
  • I think that likely; from what I gather, Syldavia was created as a bit of a mish-mash from what Hergé knew of various East European nations. If you could get access to that source again then we could certainly incorporate claims such as these into the article. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:52, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
    • I can now confirm that the source does indeed specify Romanian history as a supposed inspiration for Syldavia. It's a theory that has been advanced by Dodo Nita, described by the source as a "Romanian Tintin expert". I'm not sure where Nita's views can be originally found. That may be something worth looking into. The LBC edition has a fair bit on info on this, which I'll elaborate on later, once I have more time. --Jpcase (talk) 20:53, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
      • @Midnightblueowl: Actually, upon closer inspection - I was in a bit of a rush yesterday; sorry - it appears that Nita - the "t" and the "a" in his name should be accented, but I'm afraid that I don't know how create those characters on my keyboard - said nothing about Romanian history; at least, nothing that is relayed in the LB&C edition. Nita's theory is essentially based on three points: the actual name of Syldavia, he believes, is derived from a combination of Transylvania (a region of Romania) and Moldavia (my knowledge here is lacking, but as I understand it, this a historical region - not to be confused with Moldova - that has been partially absorbed by Romania. Perhaps you know more about it.); the use of a pelican as the symbol of Syldavia is seen by Nita as an indication that Romania is one of the influencing countries, as apparently Romania is the only European nation naturally inhabited by pelicans; and finally, Nita sees the mineral rich subsoil of Syldavia (which is discussed in the brochure that Tintin reads on the plane) as a reference to Romania's uranium deposits. I see that the article already contains a statement about Romanian "culture and costumes" bearing an influence on Syldavia; whether a country's name, fauna, and mineral deposits should considered cultural though, is questionable. Do you happen to still have access to the two sources (Peeters and Goddin) that are being used for the existing statement? I'm curious whether they go into any of these details. Either way, I do believe that it would be worth incorporating the above information into the article. There's also a fourth point, that may or may not have originated with Nita - the way that it's presented in LB&C leaves it unclear as to whether Nita or the publishing company itself saw this similarity, but a similarity is suggested between King Muskar XII and Prince Alexandru Ioan Cuza. The source only tells the reader to compare an attached photo of Cuza with Herge's depiction of Muskar. No further evidence of a connection between the two is offered. Still, this may be worth mentioning as well. --Jpcase (talk) 16:56, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• If you have the references to support the information then by all means incorporate it into the article. It should make for a good addition. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:37, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• @Midnightblueowl: If you're currently preoccupied with other articles, then I'm certainly willing to add the information myself. Although, please take the liberty of altering anything that I write, as I want you to have final say on prose and structure. Did you happen to check if you still have the Peeters and Goddin sources? Before going through with any edits, I'd like to coordinate the information from LB&C with whatever was meant by the "costumes and cultures" statement. --Jpcase (talk) 16:44, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• I'm also fairly certain the Little, Brown and Company pointed to the Royal Palace of Brussels as the inspiration for the Syldavian royal palace. As with above, I don't recall anything being said about the Charlottenburg Palace of Berlin, but that doesn't mean both palaces couldn't have been influences.
  • Again, if you could gain access to that source again then we should definitely look into incorporating some of its claims into the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:52, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
    • This too is true. And if you ask me, the Syldavian royal palace bears a much stronger resemblance to the Royal Palace of Brussels, than it does to the Charlottenburg Palace. But again, that doesn't mean both that both palaces couldn't have served as inspiration. --Jpcase (talk) 20:53, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Since I checked the book out from the library and no longer have it, I'm not 100% positive about the two points above. I could certainly reacquire the book if need be. However, I do remember for a fact, that the book points out even more cameos in the scene at the royal court, than are written about in this article.
  • The full list of cameos mentioned by the LBC edition include those already discussed in this article (Herge, his brother Paul Remi, his then-wife Germaine Kieckens, and Edgar Pierre Jacobs), as well as Jacques Van Melkebeke, Marcel Stobbaerts and Edouard Cnaepelinckx. I'm not familiar with these latter three individuals, and unfortunately the book provides no explanation regarding how they are connected to Herge. Melkebeke has his own Wikipedia page, and so I can see how he was involved with Tintin, but no such luck for the other two. Are you familiar with Stobbaerts and Cnaepelinckx? --Jpcase (talk) 20:53, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• I'm not, although perhaps they are mentioned in some of the Hergé biographies. Given the time period in question, I suspect that they may have been staff members at Le Vingtième Siècle. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:37, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• @Midnightblueowl: If you still have access to any of those biographies, would you be willing to search for their names in the indexes? It would be rather confusing to mention them in this article, without providing any context for the reader. --Jpcase (talk) 15:48, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

--Jpcase (talk) 03:32, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

@Midnightblueowl: So sorry that I haven't returned to this matter until now. My schedule has been rather demanding lately, and I've only just now managed to reacquire the source. I've responded to all of the points above. --Jpcase (talk) 20:53, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

@Jpcase: No worries at all. I'll respond to your comments. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:04, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

@Midnightblueowl: Hey, no particular rush, but I just want to make sure that you've seen my latest messages above, in case they got lost in the shuffle. I'd like to get started on adding the LB&C information, but ideally, after knowing what Peeters and Goddin said about Romania (and whether any of the bios mention Stobbaerts and Cnaepelinckx). If you don't have the sources on hand, then that's fine. I'd just like to know what we're working with. --Jpcase (talk) 15:48, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

@Jpcase: Thanks for your message. The duo are mentioned on page 153 of Peeters' biography, which is discussing King Ottokar's Sceptre: "He was even so happy with the completed work that he inserted Jacobs into the book's final scene, next to Germaine, himself, and their closest friends, Ginette and Jacques Van Melkebeke, the painter Marcel Stobbaerts, and Édouard Cnaepelinckx." Consulting the index, this appears to be the only page containing mention of Stobbaerts within the book, however the index doesn't mention Cnaepelinckx at all. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:26, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

With regards to Romania, Peeters says that "Taking his inspiration particularly from Romania and Albania, he depicted a small operetta-type country that has preserved its age-old traditions" (p. 100). Goddin doesn't actually mention Romania, instead referring to "Albania, one of Hergé's models for Syldavia..." (p. 50). Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:38, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

@Midnightblueowl: Sorry for letting this get away from me yet again. I've had barely any time for Wikipedia these days, but making these additions never fell from my to-do list. I've finished incorporating all of the discussed information. Again, please feel free to make any changes, if you feel that the phrasing, structure, or flow of the writing could be improved. I only possess minimal familiarity with footnotes, bibliographies, and the Cite Book template, so it's possible that I've made a mistake or two in my referencing, although I feel fairly confident that I figured out how to go about it. I do feel that it's worth pointing out that there's no book officially titled King Ottokar's Sceptre - The Real Life Inspiration Behind Tintin's Adventures. As one can see if they click on the Google Books url link provided in the reference, this is simply a 2011 reprinting of the actual comic. In the back of the publication, there is a 23 pg. section titled The Real-Life Inspiration Behind Tintin's Adventures. For the sake of titling the reference, I've decided to combine the name of the comic with the name of the section, linking them with a hyphen. The pg. numbers actually start over at the beginning of this section, so for example, pg. 9 of The Real-Life Inspiration Behind Tintin's Adventures is actually the 71st page of the publication as a whole (not counting the unnumbered pages that precede pg. 1 of the actual comic). The copyright and publication dates are not the same. I'm looking at the book right now, and it lists the copyright date as December 2011. Google Books lists the publication date as January 10, 2012. The ISBN numbers are an exact match, so I don't think that these are two separate editions from the same publisher. I don't know much about book publishing, but it seems reasonable that there would be a month long period in between copyright registration and the date on which the book actually hit the market. As I understand it, the date / year field is meant to be for the publication date, so I've decided to use January 12, 2012 here. If anyone is more knowledgeable in this area and wants to change the dating, then feel free to do so, although I'd request that you drop a note here explaining why. --Jpcase (talk) 17:02, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

@Midnightblueowl: It turns out that the L, B and C source actually has even more interesting info than I had initially remembered. I've taken the liberty of adding statements about the Bosnian town of Mostar being a potential influence on the Syldavian village, the Krowpow Castle being based on both Olavinlinna Castle and Vyborg Castle, and King Muskar's carriage being based on the Gold State Coach. I've also come across a great public domain image of the town of Mostar, which I've decided to incorporate into the article, as I feel that it's worth illustrating at least one of the geographic or cultural influences on Syldavia. If anyone wants to swap this image out for something else, then I'd be open to that, so long as we discuss the matter first. There are a few more details in this source that may be worth mentioning as well.

• Pg. 2 shares an amusing anecdote about a three year old Hergé, throwing a fit over loud "oompah" music at the German section of that year's World's Fair in Brussels. Tett (the author of The Real Life Inspiration Behind Tintin's Adventures) suggests that this experience may have led to Hergé's distaste for "pompous music", such as the opera singing of Bianca Castafiore. While this particular bit of trivia would probably be more at home in Castafiore's own article, I do feel that it would be worth fleshing out the one sentence we have here about Castafiore's introduction to the series, so as to mention Hergé's negative feelings towards opera, as well as the influence of Aino Ackté on the character (mentioned on pg. 15 of the L, B and C source, although I assume that other sources have also detailed this). The connection to Ackté is particularly relevant to King Ottokar's Sceptre, because in 1912, Ackté initiated the Savonlinna Opera Festival, which is held annually at Olavinlinna Castle. Only a single non-Finnish opera was ever performed during the first four years of this festival, and it was Charles Gounod's Faust, which contains the "Jewel Song" sung by Castafiore (this info is on pg. 11).

• Prof. Alembick has a seal of Edward the Confessor in his collection, believed to be the earliest example of a seal used by an English monarch. Only one complete example of this seal is known of, although it's now seen as a likely forgery. (pg. 23)

• The translation of King Ottokar IV's famous phrase (as "quoted" in the brochure) was changed for the English language edition from "Here I am, here I stay", to "If you gather thistles, expect prickles" (pg. 7).

I'm not going to add any of this information myself, as I simply don't have the time, but I'd recommend that someone look into doing so, if FA prep ever begins. One last question for you Midnight - are you quite certain that King Ottokar's Sceptre is the particular comic being discussed on pg. 153 of Peeters' biography? I don't doubt you, but it's worth noting that the cameos don't actually occur in the "final scene" of the comic, as Peeters has apparently suggested, but rather, they appear on the fourth-to-last page. It would be an understandable enough mistake on Peeters' part, but I just want to make sure. Also, while L, B, and C identifies Jacques Van Melkebeke, it says nothing of Ginnete. Are both definitely mentioned by Peeters? --Jpcase (talk) 20:56, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

• Thanks for your research and additions, User:Jpcase. I'll get around to checking your queries soon, I hope. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:20, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Romania has a particularly large pelican population, but it is not the only country with pelicans in Europe. There are two species of pelican in eastern Mediterranean region as well. It's pretty clear from the Wikipedia articles about the two pelican species, the great white pelican and the Dalmatian pelican. 2.104.41.248 (talk) 07:09, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Balkan or Balkans

I just noticed that the first sentence of the Background section's fifth paragraph includes the term "Balkans region", whereas the following sentence uses "Balkan region". The no "s" variant is used a couple other times in this article. Google searching each term yields many results from what appear to be quality sources. Does anyone know whether one of these is more accurate or common than the other? Even if both are acceptable, I would recommend that we only use one of them for the purposes of this article. --Jpcase (talk) 23:20, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi Jpcase; my Google Maps says it's "The Balkan Peninsula", or "the Balkans". Feel free to change it. Best, —Prhartcom♥ 23:30, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

If we're using the term "region" though? What then? I'm still not sure. But "Balkan" would make more sense as an adjective and is already used more frequently in this article, so I'll treat that as the standard and make the appropriate change. Thanks for your input! --Jpcase (talk) 23:44, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Syldavian "language"

"Tintin fans adopted the Syldavian language that appears in the story and used it to construct grammars and dictionaries, akin to the fan following of Star Trek's Klingon and J.R.R. Tolkien's Elvish." No! It's not remotely akin. Klingon and Tolkien's Elvish languages are real languages, that is, languages designed complete with grammar, phonology, and vocabulary, by professional linguists incidentally. Syldavian is not a real language. Hergé never bothered to create a Syldavian grammar or compile a Syldavian vocabulary. Everything presented as 'Syldavian' is in fact Brussels dialect in weird outlandish spelling. So you can't speak or learn Syldavian like you can speak Klingon or Quenya. This comparison is very misleading and should either be removed or strongly adapted. Steinbach (talk) 22:11, 18 October 2019 (UTC)