Talk:La Tène culture

Note: This article has used the convention BCE/CE since its first expansion from a dateless stub, 05:00, 17 February 2004

old stuff

• Strettweg and Hochdorf as examples of LT? seriously? 128.83.242.31 (talk) 00:45, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
• Glastonbury and Irish late Iron age are certainly not typical La-Tene
• Description of torques- Waldalgesheim style no geometric elements, and Iwould like to see proof of Skythian influence??
• Whole article needs a re-write in my opinion --Yak 10:44, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• The Princess of Vix mentioned in "famous La Tène works"??? That she was a Celt and likely of La Tène culture, okay... but for chrisstakes the one thing that made the sepulture most remarkable was a Greek trade item. And what is the Battersea Shield, found in England, if recognized as a Celtic item, doing in a Dane museum, since Denmark always was under Germanic sway, never Celt (and yes, I know that where the Gundestrupp cauldron was found, but the Vix crater was a Greek item found in a Celtic tomb after all). --Svartalf 13:13, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A good counterbalance to this point-of-view, and a re-thinking of Celtic reactions to Greek/Etruscan luxury objects, is in Constanze Witt, "Barbarians on the Greek periphery? origins of Celtic Art" --Wetman 02:05, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

• Maybe mention the La Tène sword found by Timeteam at the faked archaeological site in Wales. Will add it to external links in a week or so if no opposition. Khukri 11:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

The genuine La Tène sword planted at the fake "neo-druidic" spring at Llygadwy has plenty to tell us about the intellectual milieu of Neo-Druidism but nothing about La Tène, since it will never be known whence it came. --Wetman 06:55, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Further Reading

Isn't the "Further Reading" section a little heavy on the Celto-Skeptics? No Barry Cunliffe, Peter Berresford Ellis, or David Rankin, for examples? Stevo343 (talk) 14:53, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I think you're probably seeing the influence of modern thought on the idea of a unified Celtic Europe. However, I have added Barry Cunliffe's The Ancient Celts to the further reading as it's recommended reading for the Iron Age Europe module in the archaeology degree at the University of Bradford. --86.169.1.144 (talk) 20:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Map

The map has errors on it. The Scordisci are placed far too north. They resided in the region of modern day [[[Belgrade]], not in Hungary. Secondly, the Dardanians were even farther south, in Kosovo... and they weren't Celtic, but Thraco-Illyrian. Hxseek (talk) 06:33, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Greek authors

The fact that ancient greekor roman authors called this or that people Keltoi or galli does not show that that people was celt speaking people in the way we mean today. Romans and especially greeks called EVERY nordic people with blond hair Keltoi but we know that having blond hair does not mean genetic proximity or even ethnic comunity. So it is inappropriate to relate ancient Keltoi to modern celts as it would be to relate swedish people with blond hair (one is ethnic indentifier the other is a Physical aspect)... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.6.34.106 (talk) 17:14, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Vix query

"In Vix, France, an elite woman of the 6th century BCE was buried with a bronze cauldron made in Greece." Does this mean the Vix Krater, a wine-mixing vessel made in Magna Graecia? Johnbod (talk) 05:15, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

From a casual look, either Tarantine or Spartan. The latter if the text on the neck is an abecedarium (maybe, maybe not) which is Lakonian. Twospoonfuls (ειπέ)

I meant that if the Vix Krater is meant "cauldron" is not a very good word to use. Johnbod (talk) 19:33, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

La Tène culture and Projects

Moving the conversation here from Johnbod as it relates to articles.

Hi, I saw you removed some relevant projects from the Talk:La Tène culture. I think it is very useful to mark an article with relevant projects as it steers collaboration. {{WikiProjectBannerShell}} can be used to collapse them if necessary. Do you have any objections to keep the projects and have them collapsed like that? Thanks and best regards.--Codrin.B (talk) 04:21, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Since the culture eventually covered most of Western Europe the number of project tags involved would be potentially excessive, & I am very dubious of the benefits of tags in "steering collaboration" or anything else. Better to stick to the few most relevant. Johnbod (talk) 13:54, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I see the worry of having too many countries listed there per say, but La Tène belongs as much to Czech Republic as much as it belongs to Switzerland as far as I am concerned. It doesn't matter if is was named about a town in modern country, thousands of years later. Each country listed has archaeological sites, museums, specialists, and conversely contributors in the corresponding WikiProjects who can add something valuable. La Tène seems to belong predominantly to Celts, but Dacians, Illyrians and others were clearly influenced. What would make collaboration dubious?! Isn't it the core idea of the wiki? The more eyes, the more knowledge, the more reviewers, the faster the article grows, evolves and matures? I hope you don't plan to WP:OWN it. --Codrin.B (talk) 19:33, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I'd much rather remove Switzerland than add 25 other projects. Project tagging is one of the least useful forms of activity here. Johnbod (talk) 20:43, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm doing many other things, but completely I disagree with you, per my arguments above to which you didn't respond at all. To clarify further, in case you don't know, once tagged, the articles show up in the WP:ASSESSMENT list of those projects, prompting attention from qualified users. I find it far more unfortunate and destructive, to spend the time removing project banners from relevant projects, than adding them in the first place in an attempt to get more coverage, stir collaboration and finally improve quality. I am sure others will come and tag this project as well, as it is the only logical way. I think you should review WP:OWN and wiki in depth and give me valid arguments against project tagging and collaboration--Codrin.B (talk) 05:18, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I have hardly edited the article, & cannot be accused of owning it. Actually since this is the article that covers the name-site itself, obviously the Swiss tag should stay. For the last time, there are about 25 projects which are as relevant as the ones you added, & to add them all would be WP:CRUFT. Johnbod (talk) 13:23, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, thanks for the link. I reviewed this essay (not a policy!) in detail and I fail to see the connection. We are not talking about fanatical fans or something remotely related here but about relevant projects to the article. Among the most relevant of all it was Wikipedia:WikiProject European history, as La Tène culture spans a large area of Europe. Regarding Dacians just interacting with Celts (less then Romans), they were actually part of the La Tène culture, together with Illyrians and others, granted the core is deemed to be "Swiss Celts" (the only connections you wish to keep here). If you care to review this list of historical monuments and archaeological site in Romania (by county), you will see the multitude and large spread of La Tène settlements, some of which are Dacian, Getae, and some obviously Celtic, or mixed. I don't suggest 25 projects (I added just a few) but {{WikiProjectBannerShell}} can be used to collapse them anyway. I believe in fundamentals of collaboration and inclusionism, and fail to see how deletionism can be constructive. I am really trying hard to understand your point but I can't. But you are an admin and a major contributor, so I'll give you credit for that. But I do plan to add content about La Tène settlements in Romania. I hope you don't have an issue with that. --Codrin.B (talk) 17:44, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not an admin! No, you didn't add 25 projects, because you just add your Dacian and Romanian projects! But if they are there, then so should be the French German, Belgian, Irish, English ....... etc ad infinitum .... projects. Which is tagcruft. If you had my experience you would realize how inactive most projects are. Very very few articles should have more than 3 tags. Johnbod (talk) 18:57, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought you are an admin :-) In any case, take it as a compliment :-) Theoretically, yes, all those projects related to countries should be here, out of fairness. As I sad, there are practical ways to manage that, since WP:NOTPAPER. I for one, I added the ones I am a member of and have an interest in, and I didn't start to analyze who else could be here. And I would never remove a project banner, out of principle. I think it is sad when projects became inactive, although, you can see spikes in the activity of each project, as people join, discover them or have time, being an entirely volunteer work. Maybe projects move like snails instead of cheethas, but they do move, if you have the patience to watch :-) I am honestly thinking that adding tags to dormant projects might wake up someone. It's a way to prompt activity. "You got mail! One more article needs assessment!" I am not sure when saying "projects sleep, let's not wake them up" will help. Let's agree to disagree. Cheers! --Codrin.B (talk) 19:32, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Removed map

I've removed the Image:Hallstatt LaTene.png from the article, as it incorrectly shows the extent of the La Tène (I've spotted it accidentally that it went beyond Sava in Slovenia; [1] COBISS 21681709) and Hallstatt culture (see Talk:Hallstatt culture) and there are some other mistakes, described above at this talk page (see #Map). --Eleassar ^{my talk} 10:18, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Map by DBachmann has Haywwod as a source - you should not have removed it without an alternative suggestion as to a suitable map.Jembana (talk) 12:17, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Why not? It has been objected to on the basis of reliable sources. We cannot post disputed material, particularly not without a proper context. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 15:59, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I have reliable sources that say the map is reasonably accurate - you shouldn't be removing a major piece of work by another editor that has been accepted for so long by other editors as reasonably correct on the basis of a minor quibling (and by a minor academic whose work is not renowned by his peers).Jembana (talk) 21:39, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Your "sources" do not pass WP:VERIFY against many fine reliable references - restoring maps with just some of these reliable references.Jembana (talk) 23:26, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Here is a map that shows the extent of the La Tène culture differently and more accurately as regards Slovenia and Southeastern Europe.[2] The same for the Hallstatt, see [3]. I think these maps, published in the Brill's New Pauly, qualify as reliable sources. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 08:58, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

OK - those are good - the Hallstatt map corresponds with Raimund's in the east (Piggot, Gamito and Koch extend further in the west - La Tene also n west). All my sources extend La Tene further in the east. What's the essential disagreement with the current map ? Slovakia seems to be included in all - am I right ?Jembana (talk) 09:09, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Raimund Karl's map shows a West Halstatt core area, a West Hallstatt periphery, a Middle Hallstatt culture area, an East Hallstatt culture area and says that the northeastern Lausitz culture atrea is related - that's a bit more then. Sorry edit conflict with your last post.Jembana (talk) 09:18, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

It's not about Slovakia, it's Slovenia. The greatest extent should be to the south of the Sava (Savus) river in the Balkan Peninsula, see the find sites (Stična, Vače, Novo Mesto, the Lower Krajina Group, the Istrian Group etc. for the Hallstatt C; Mokronog, Novo Mesto for the La Tène C). --Eleassar ^{my talk} 09:14, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Karl's map agrees with you - line east from Rijeka - yes.Jembana (talk) 09:21, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Slovenia is part of both Celtic culture areas - Hallstatt and later La Tene - on all my maps - who is disagreeing with you on this then ?Jembana (talk) 09:28, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Let me draft up a new map based on those of your and my references - it appears there is a need to update but no reason to remove slightly out-of-date maps completely.Jembana (talk) 09:52, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

It's about where exactly in Slovenia the remains have been found (like for example at Novo Mesto, the town of situlas, situated south of the Sava, and elsewhere). I'm glad you're willing to rectify the map. There are two maps currently in the article, File:Hallstatt.png being more exact as regards Slovenia; nonetheless, it's best to draft a new map incorporating all the relevant sources. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 13:54, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Agreed - I will colour code the areas so they are easy to distinguish. Thanks for the input - that was interesting for another area as well - made me have a closer look at SE Europe in detail and some areas stood out for further investigation.Jembana (talk) 21:45, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

BTW the map you prefer for the east has problems in the west because it does not include archaeological discoveries (back to around 800 BC in Segovia, southern Portugal) of Hallstatt coarse stamped pottery - these are well documented and verified.Jembana (talk) 22:11, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I just remembered that others editors had put up the map to be redrafted by a map expert - how is that going ? I don't want to cut across others efforts - particularly DBachmann who did the original map.Jembana (talk) 22:30, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the request was concluded as "stale".[4] --Eleassar ^{my talk} 10:00, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

OK - change that map as suggested, myself, since no-one else seems to have had an interest in doing it.Jembana (talk) 22:15, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Why haven't you changed it yourself - any reason ?Jembana (talk) 22:55, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Also, we should put on the culture areas that Karl (2010) says are related such as Golasecca, Lausitz and the Meseta cultures and make plain that Hallstatt coarse stamped pottery is found in the Atlantic fringe and La Tene culture as far as NE Ireland (such settlement confirmed by McEvoy's DNA wotk). Just to bring it up to date.Jembana (talk) 00:36, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't consider myself skillful enough to edit graphics like maps. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 01:40, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Eleassar is cleary operating under completely unrealistic assumptions concerning the accuracy with which the boundaries of archaeological cultures can or should be given. This is a map for thumbnail use. Any "boundary" should not be taken to be accurate to less than at least 50 km or so. If you do a poll on published maps delineating the Hallstatt culture (or any other archaeological culture) you will find that they will differ. This will not necessarily indicate a "controversy". You could spend a month doing a meta-study of scatter plots of the boundaries you find in published maps, or you could simply accept that the purpose of these maps is no more and no less than to give a rough indication of territorial extent.

I have no problem with these maps[5][6] Draw free versions of these in acceptable quality and obviously we are going to use them.

You need to step away from your parochial approach. Jembana, being from Iberia, obsesses about the Celtiberians and nothing else. Eleassar, being from Slovenia, obsesses about the exact boundary in Slovenia but could not care less about Gaul or Iberia. If you would use your "local" expertise to collaborate, that would be fine. Instead, you try to try to bring your parochial fixation to dominate the general topic. This is both harmful and amateurish. Sure, we can add or remove a few pixels in Slovenia if you insist. But this is a diachronic map covering a culture which spans five centuries, not a detailed map of Celtic finds in Slovenia labelled by calibrated radiocarbon year. --dab (𒁳) 07:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I do insist. According to Novo Mesto, "the city is one of the most important archeological sites of the Hallstatt culture (Early Iron Age) and has been nicknamed the "City of Situlas" after numerous situlas found in the area." (referenced in the article). I've done my duty and have provided a reliable reference (another map) to correct the map currently included in the article. I don't consider adding or removing a few pixels as "trying to dominate the general topic". --Eleassar ^{my talk} 08:55, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

look, I'll happily update the Hallstatt boundary to conincide with a reference you give me. I am just not prepared to do this city-by-city, as everyone from the Balkans joins the discussion demanding that their hometown is added as "Celtic" individually. Will this map be acceptable as a point of departure?

Also, why are we discussing Hallstatt boundaries on Talk:La Tène culture? Are you happy with the La Tène boundary as shown or do you want that altered too? --dab (𒁳) 12:01, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

It's acceptable to me. As to the La Tène, I'd suggest the inclusion of [7] data. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 16:34, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Genetics

Is it known what mitochondrial and Y haplotypes did the people of this culture have? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.233.232 (talk) 15:33, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Most people tend to point toward Y-DNA haplogroup R1b. — al-Shimoni (talk) 00:33, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and a recent study of ancient mtDNA in southern Germany has pointed to an increased percentage of mitochondrial DNA haplogroup H associated with the spread of Celtic populations both at the overall and specific subclade level.Jembana (talk) 06:44, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Aquitania Celtic?

Seeing that the Roman period inscriptions are closer to Basque than to Gaulish, & the area become known as Gascony [ versus Wascony to the south] wherefore are Aquitanians Celts? AptitudeDesign(talk) 09:11, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, bring some credible sources , and (with due weight) introduce matter which might question the traditional view. But remember, this article is mostly about the la Tene culture, and not the postulated linguistic affinities of ancient languages Slovenski Volk (talk) 23:42, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by AptitudeDesign (talk • contribs) 09:05, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Contradiction in Article: La Tene in British Isles or not?

At the moment the article includes the statement "La Tène cultural material appeared over a large area, including parts of Ireland and Great Britain", without any reference. The rest of the article, and also the map, do not show any La Tene influence in Ireland or most of Britain. Can someone provide a reference, or else delete this contradictory statement? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.107.41 (talk) 10:10, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

It's confusing, and the borders of archaeological cultures are not well-defined anyway. La Tène artefacts were found far afield, in places that are not part of the archaeological La Tène culture proper. There are La Tène finds in Britain, but Britain was not part of La Tène culture proper. The same goes for Poland, northern Germany and Scandinavia.

La Tène corresponds to late or mature Continental Celtic, or Gaulish at its core. The early Celtic or Proto-Celtic expansion took place during the Hallstatt period. The early Celts reached Iberia and Britain before the developments of the core Celtic areal after c. 500 BC, so Britain, Iberia and Croatia are part of the Hallstatt horizon, but not part of the La Tène one. --dab (𒁳) 17:24, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

That's not entirely helpful. What is called "Insular La Tène", as an artistic style, is found and made over pretty much all the British Isles, as the article explains - remember the quote you complain of referred to "La Tène cultural material" (bolded to help you). It is for the most part true to say that "Britain was not part of La Tène culture proper", except for some Gallic immigrant groups in the period, but exactly how to characterize the relationship between the core and Insular La Tène is unclear and controversial. The somewhat confusing use of "La Tène" by archaeologists is really because they absolutely hate using "Celts/Celtic", except to grasp the attention of the general public, and there is no other suitable term. Johnbod (talk) 19:44, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

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Herodotus and Keltoi

Regarding this assertion: Herodotus (iv.49) correctly placed Keltoi at the source of the Ister/Danube, in the heartland of La Tène material culture: "The Ister flows right across Europe, rising in the country of the Celts".

Herodotus asserts the exact inverse of what is asserted, namely that he thinks the Danube starts where the Celts live (near the Pyrenees and south of Iberia near the Cynesians if you read the full quote). In the full quote Herodotus is talking about rivers, and using peoples as references, not the other way around. He talks about how he thinks the Nile starts in West Africa and cuts across Africa then goes north just symmetrically to what he thinks the Danube does, namely start in West(ern most) Europe (near Cynesians and the Pyrenees) and cut across Europe before going south. The assertion currently in the article is a famously incorrect reading of Herodotus' quote that even other parts of wikipedia get it right already, namely the article on the Celts itself. Please help correct this common misconception. Thank you. 2604:2000:C680:8700:D019:DDA:C1B2:7788 (talk) 04:50, 10 December 2019 (UTC)