Talk:Labial–velar consonant

Discussion

Kwami, did you add the Eggon table? If so, what source is it from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by WmGB (talk • contribs) 17:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

What the f***? Doubly articulated fricatives do not seem to be possible? I have no problem to even pronounce four fricatives with different PoA's at once...--Army1987 21:15, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Ehm... In what I was pronouncing, the radical articulation was more of a pharingealization than of real friction, but I am able to pronounce velar, alveolar and bilabial fricatives at once.--Army1987 21:22, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

"Not possible" is too strong a phrase. But they are difficult to articulate, and perhaps even more difficult to hear. They are not confirmed for any language; many claims have been made, but they have never held up upon inspection.

As for your triply articulated fricative, I would imagine you need a fair amount of concentration to maintain true frication at all three places. I might be able to manage it myself, but the frication comes and goes in waves, so that the triple articulation phases in and out of single and double articulations. It also needs a lot of lung power, and makes my dizzy if I try to hold it. Plus, I could probably get the same sound with some secondary articulation. Not a very effective consonant! kwami 06:20, 2005 September 12 (UTC)

I reworded the article. However IMO not even doubly articulated stops are really simultaneous. In all Internet examples of [kp] I've listened to, they overlap to a certain extent, but the release of [k] is audibly slightly before than the release of [p].--Army1987 19:07, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that's true, and not just in what you've heard. I used to speak a bit of Fon gbe, and this really should be mentioned in the article. However, while the onset and release are slightly offset (and thus the order of the letters in [k͡p] is motivated), 90% of the occlusion is simultaneous. This is a very different effect than a [kp] sequence, and "double articulation" is a fairly accurate label. It does sound a bit like a sequence when intervocalic, but word initially it sounds very different. Also, when there is allophonic variation, [k͡p] tends to alternate with [kʷ], and never to my knowledge with [kp]. kwami 20:43, 2005 September 12 (UTC)

Ejective and implosive at this POA

It says: "Labial–velar stops also occur as ejective [k͡pʼ] and implosive [ɠɓ][.]" Is this actually true? I'm not aware of a single language that has both labial-velars and ejectives, let alone a labial-velar ejective. If we're going to say they occur, we need an example.Cromulant (talk) 20:17, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

According to WALS, the Biu-Mandara language Kotoko is the only language that has both labial-velars and ejectives. It’s possible that the restrictions on labial ejectives and velar imposives are very strong and prevent a labial-velar ejective from evolving, and I am not 100 percent sure a labial-velar implosive can actually be articulated (check a professional linguist of course). luokehao (talk), 4:04 (UTC), 7 April 2014

Languages that have labial–velars are rare and ejectives occur on average only in ~20% of languages, then it means that it is basically statistics of small numbers. Then again, [pʼ] is rarer than other ejectives and [ɓ] rarer than other implosives, because these are "more difficult", which means that a) the number become even smaller, b) there are selection pressures against these, which may well be augmented by the selection pressures against labial–velars, making these exceedingly rarer. Nevertheless, articulatorily, these are possible. --JorisvS (talk) 09:21, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

This is somewhat late, but [ɓ] is not rarer than other implosives; it's the easiest implosive to pronounced and the most common one. The most difficult-to-pronounce and least common implosive is [ʛ]. Zgialor (talk) 22:48, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, [ɓ] relatively common, but it makes no difference to the core of my argument. --JorisvS (talk) 11:37, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

/ɠ͡ɓ, ƙ͜ƥ/ is attested in Central Igbo dialect and [k͡pʼ] is unattested anywhere. AleksiB 1945 (talk) 15:02, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Note the voiced implosive occurs in Lese as per Demolin 1999, so it should be possible to say. 24.4.109.4 (talk) 02:42, 15 January 2024 (UTC)