Talk:List of census divisions of Ontario

Untitled

The title for this article doesn't seem appropriate, as the term "census division" suggests that the divisions are arbitrarily set by Statistics Canada (in the same manner as census tracts, etc.); I know that the term is valid, but I think this should be at List of Ontario municipalities especially considering that these regions, counties, and districts, call themselves municipalities and it is the widely accepted (and understood) term.[1] Darkcore 21:03, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Municipalities is worse, because we have municipalities in Ontario (eg. Municipality of West Nipissing) and they are at the level of Census Subdivisions. We could call it list of Ontario divisions however, if that makes any sense. Earl Andrew 00:10, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, I see your point. Plus, now that I think of it, municipality applies more to bottom-level units (cities, towns) than it does counties (at least generally, even though they're both technically considered to be municipalities). I was also thinking List of Ontario regions, counties and districts but that's a little crazy. I think List of Ontario divisions is much too vague and could be easily misunderstood. I'm starting to think that List of Ontario regions, counties and districts is the best possible title for this article. Darkcore 00:25, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well, census divisions is working with my whole national plan. I'm slowly adding pages to each census division in Canada. I just using the term census division is a lot more convenient, especially at the national level. Your idea is good, but you have to remember, there are also cities like Ottawa or Toronto that are their own census division, plus there are examples like Frontenac that are Management Units. Should we call it list of Ontario, regional municipalities, counties, districts, independent cities, and management units? Earl Andrew 00:57, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What about, simply, List of Ontario top-level municipalities? I definitely understand the convenience of using census division, but I feel that it's way too ambiguous and confusing (not to mention incomprehensible--how many Canadians actually know what a census division is?) to the average reader. Darkcore 01:29, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Just as an aside, Frontenac Management Unit (actually, Frontenac Management Board) is obsolete. It is now Frontenac County.[2] Darkcore 11:37, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I did a bit of research into this. The county as a legal entity no longer exists, and it is still the same Frontenac Management Board that was created in 1998. They simply call themselves Frontenac County (I'm guessing for historical reasons), though the term county is not legally assigned to the Management Board. They also have extremely limited powers, with most upper-tier items being handled by the individual townships. Esentially, they're far more like a district than a county, but with the added responsibility of an Old Age Home north of Kingston and Land Ambulance service. Yet another Ontario jurisdiction that is not really a county, yet calls itself one. Snickerdo 09:05, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm now thinking that it might be appropriate to keep this page as is, but change List of Ontario counties from a redirect to this page, to an article devoted entirely to Ontario's upper-tier municipalities (regions and counties only). Darkcore 12:03, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

How about we make list of Ontario counties into a page on Ontario's county history. (Much like what I did/am trying to do with the list of Quebec counties). We can have pages like Ontario County, Ontario or Carleton County, Ontario, etc. Earl Andrew 14:42, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't have that much of an opinion on this either way, but shouldn't such pages be at List of historic Ontario counties or List of historic Quebec counties (or even just Historic counties of Ontario) so as not to confuse readers into thinking that such political divisions still exist? Darkcore 18:42, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps. On the Quebec page, I mentioned beside the link that they were historic. Oh, BTW lovely job with the clarification, I like it! :)

Earl Andrew 20:26, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Census division is the collective name for all regions including counties, districts, regional municipalities, etc. SD6-Agent 09:35, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

I just added:

Note that some single-tier towns and cities, such as Guelph and Brantford, are still in the same census division as the county they were once associated with, and are thus not listed separately below.

Which is quite true. Do we have a difinitive list of such things? I beleive Smiths Falls fits into this category as well, but I have not been able to confirm this anywhere, to my frustration... Radagast 19:14, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

Regional Municipality of Oxford County

The latest update of the Municipal Act (the same one that created the unicities of Hamilton, Haldimand, Norfolk, Greater Sudbury and Ottawa) also created the Regional Municipality of Oxford County, even though its popular title is still Oxford County and no reference to the RM is made. I added this information to the Oxford County page and moved Oxford County into the list of RMs on this page, but I'm afraid I don't know enough about the editing tools to modify that table at the bottom of the page. If someone wants to fill me in, or make the change, that'd be great. -- Snickerdo 05:57, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Rewrite?

This article could probably use a bit of a re-write, but I don't want to do anything major until getting input from all the contributors to this article. As of 2001, there is legally no difference between a County, RM or District Municipality in Ontario - they're all legally considered 'Upper-Tier Municipalities,' though Oxford and Muskoka are legally considered a Regional Municipality for the purposes of legislation prior to 2001. The Ontario Municipal Act also makes specific reference to what each individual upper-tier municipality has jurisdiction over, and whether that jurisdiction is then passed down to the lower-tier municipalities (through non-exclusive agreement) or can only be handled exclusively by the upper-tier municipality. There is also no legal difference between townships, towns and cities from a Municipal Act standpoint, although certain legislation can make reference to a section that only applies based on the corporate status of a lower-tier municipality (e.g. the Highway Traffic Act applies a non-posted limit of 80KM/h to 'townships,' but 50KM/h to 'towns' and 'cities').

While discussed previously, this article should probably be split into two - Census Divisions of Ontario, which would list CAs and CMAs and their boundaries which are different from the municipalities, and then a new article called 'Municipal Structure of Ontario' that discusses single-tier, upper-tier and lower-tier municipalities, and the historic differences between Regions, Counties, Towns, Cities, Townships, etc.

Does anyone have any thought on this? I'd like to begin the changes some time over the Christmas weekend. -- Snickerdo 02:05, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

CA's anc CMA's have nothing to do with Census Divisions, but I like the idea of a municipal structure page. And dont forget this page: list of census subdivisions in Ontario Earl Andrew 02:39, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The only reason I believe there should be a re-write is because of how you can get a census division (e.g. Brant) that consists of two single-tier municipalities, or you can get another census division (e.g. Oxford) that's called a county but legally an RM prior to the whole difference being removed, and then you have Wellington which is an upper-tier municipality with a single-tier municipality within it that is still part of the census division. It's a bit confusing. The Census Divisions article can make reference to the actual census divisions, as well as the agglomerations and metro areas, and then the municipal structure article can make reference to just how the municipal system in Ontario works. -- Snickerdo 03:12, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Again I ask, what do agglomerations have to do with census divisions? Earl Andrew 04:36, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You better clarify what you mean by a Census division, because census is handled by Statistics Canada, and Municipal Structure is handled by the Ministry of Municipal Affairs. They are not one and the same. By that same token, Niagara is NOT a Census division, but each municipality inside it is an individual census division on its own, when combined form a CMA. A page about census divisions talking about municipal strucutre, such as this one, just leads to confusion, since most of the information is out of date or doesn't apply. If you want to split hairs, that's fine by me, but there should be an article that talks about municipal structure, and an article that talks about the census divisions with no reference to how municipalities are handled in the province. -- Snickerdo 05:57, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Bah, I have a feeling that we're going to start debating like the previous section above. How about we just remove all the municipal-type information from the census division page, simply including the naming and historic information on Ontario's census divisions (perhaps even discussing the evolution of the divisions, etc) and then a new page for how municipal strucutre is handled, including single-level, upper-level, lower-level, the duties and responsibilities of each type, etc? -- Snickerdo 06:06, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've done quite a bit of work expanding the list

My work on the list of Single Tiers goes to 2005, there have been changes since then as more and more cities and towns become single tier all over Ontario. Someone can lend a hand to cross check for changes from the Ministry list and add new single-tiers on the main published list that would be greatWikiWoo 03:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Also the Double Tiered cities for Muskoka and Oxford is missing and someone can add those too.WikiWoo 03:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

This is an article about census divisions. You are adding things that are not census divisions. In addition, you are mistaking lower-tier municipalities for single-tier municipalities in many cases. You also have some very odd naming scheme--no town, (or city or township, or village for that matter) in Ontario has the name "Town of Single Tier [name]". OzLawyer 06:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

List of Ontario municipalities

Since WikiWoo is intent on creating a list of single-tier municipalities in Ontario (it's part of a tirade against Regional government), I have created a very basic list of all the incorporated municipalities in Ontario within the sections of single-tier municipalities, regional municipalities, counties, separated municipalities, and districts. This page currently resides at User:Osgoodelawyer/sandbox. I have advised WikiWoo that if this page is to be made into an article, it should be named List of Ontario municipalities. If he takes my advice, I'm sure the page could do with a lot of work from those working on this article. OzLawyer 15:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The page has been created (by me), now sectioned into single- and dual-tier municipalities, with subsections for the types of municipalities (but little text besides the listing of municipalities--aside from WikiWoo's header). The page is very crowded and might do better being split into sub pages. OzLawyer 16:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Haldimand / Norfolk

It appears as though, according to the new map put out by StatsCan, that they are still together as a census division. Take a look at the map: http://geodepot.statcan.ca/Diss2006/Maps/Maps_Cartes/SGC-CGT/11_ON(s)_2006.pdf?series=CD-CSD&geography=11_ON%28s%29_2006&fileName=http%3A%2F%2Fgeodepot.statcan.ca%2FDiss2006%2FMaps%2FMaps_Cartes%2FSGC-CGT%2F11_ON%28s%29_2006.pdf -- Earl Andrew - talk 07:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

can anybody put the information that lists all the Counties and such with their populations into a chart that is sorted by population and such... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.46.141.18 (talk) 02:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Haldimand-Norfolk is listed as a Single-Tier Municipality, however does not fit the definition given on the page "A single-tier municipality is governed by one municipal administration". It seems that Haldimand-Norfolk would fit better under Regional municipalities Stinger503 (talk) 14:42, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Districts?

If districts have no governmental role, then why even have separate districts in the first place? Why not just have one large area that isn't part of a county/regional municipality? In other words, what exactly separates, say, Rainy River district from Kenora district if neither have any kind of governmental power? Why have them as separate districts anyway? 98.221.128.109 (talk) 03:48, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Now 49 census divisions

There are now 49 census divisions according to the 2011 census, down one from the 50 listed on this article. There were 49 in 2006 as well. Which one no longer exists and what happened to it? Hwy43 (talk) 07:57, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Norfolk and Haldimand Counties were never separate census divisions. This is actually a problem with this article: the census divisions don't quite match up with Ontario's upper-tier administrative divisions. The County of Brant and the City of Brantford are also separate administrative units but are treated by Statistics Canada as a single census division. (In other words, there are 49 census divisions but 51 administrative divisions, so Census divisions of Ontario#Division map is neither here nor there since it's missing Brantford.) I have removed some text from the article that suggested otherwise. It's probably appropriate to move this page to Administrative divisions of Ontario and rewrite the lead accordingly. Cobblet (talk) 17:49, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't think a move is necessary. Its current title is satisfactory. The changes you've made make things more clear. Hwy43 (talk) 19:06, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

The City of Brantford is not an upper-tier municipality but rather a single-tier. There are 173 such municipalities in Ontario that are not considered part of an upper-tier municipality (a county or region) and do not have any associated lower-tier municipalities.

The problem with is that this article is conflating geographic divisions set by Statistics Canada for enumeration purposes with administrative definitions set by the Province of Ontario for governance purposes. Statistics Canada sets the definition of Census Division and recognizes 6 types of CD in Ontario. The Ontario Municipal Act defines which powers and services municipalities are responsible for and only identifies 3 types of municipality (upper, lower and single tier).

To be accurate, this article should discuss only the Statistics Canada definition of Census Division and how they define the various types of CD. This would not include discussion of the types of services provided because that is not addressed by the Census Division definition. Discussion about services provided by different types of municipality in Ontario should more appropriately appear on the List of municipalities in Ontario article. I would be happy to tackle a rewrite, but it would be substantive and eliminate a large amount of content on this article that is currently duplicated (and better located) on the List of municipalities in Ontario article. Kilgore89 (talk) 17:22, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Kilgore89, I agree that this article should only discuss the 49 census divisions in Ontario as defined and delineated by Statistics Canada and that all discussion of types of services be removed. You are correct that this type of information is more appropriate at List of municipalities in Ontario. In fact, that article may already satisfactorily present this information. In the meantime, as stated in my reply to Themightyquill below, the remaining traces of the incorrect 50 census divisions have been removed. Cheers, Hwy43 (talk) 18:44, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Just to clarify, the article says "Although the Regional Municipality of Haldimand-Norfolk split in 2001 to become the single-tier municipalities of Haldimand County and Norfolk County, the counties are currently still considered a single census division by Statistics Canada." but it also lists them Haldimand and Norfolk as separate census divisions in the top section of the article. Which information is correct? - Themightyquill (talk) 10:20, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Themightyquill, the culprit was the incorrect map. Someone took it upon themselves to map all 49 census divisions, and then split the Haldimand-Norfolk census division into two as if they were now two separate census divisions, but as we now know from the above, the splitting of the Regional Municipality of Haldimand-Norfolk in 2001 into two single-tier municipalities did not trigger a corresponding census division split as far as Statistics Canada is concerned. The map has been removed and the list has been collapsed back to 49. Hwy43 (talk) 18:31, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Divisions vs tracts?

Is there any correspondence between divisions vs the census tracts detailed here: Census Tracts, Cartographic Boundary File - 2016 Census? The tracts are discontinuous, unlike the divisions. --scruss (talk) 18:03, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Here is definition of census division while here is the definition of census tracts. Census tracts are only in place within census metropolitan areas and census agglomerations where the population of the core is 50,000 or greater (though the tracts do continue to exist if the core's population dips below 50,000). Hwy43 (talk) 18:12, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Definition of "Single-tier municipalities"

The definition of "single-tier municipality" on this page does not match with the information at List of municipalities in Ontario#Single-tier municipalities. The list here says there are 9 single-tier municipalities in Ontario. The other says "Ontario has 173 single-tier municipalities." Category:Single-tier municipalities in Ontario has 173 entries. - Themightyquill (talk) 14:42, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

The one on this page doesn't cite any sources, the one on List of municipalities in Ontario#Single-tier municipalities cites the Ontario's Municipal Act, 2001. The latter is thus accurate. Mattximus (talk) 00:08, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Themightyquill, while I can’t explain the state this article is in I can advise that of Ontario’s 173 single-tier municipalities, 9 of them essentially comprise an entire census division whereas the balance are census subdivisions that only form portions of other census divisions. Hwy43 (talk) 08:28, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@Hwy43: Agreed, but that just means that single-tier municipalities do not generally correspond at all with census divisions, and so probably shouldn't be used on this page, except perhaps in passing. - Themightyquill (talk) 09:21, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

General problem with Counties section

There is a big difference between The Census Division named "Simcoe County" and The administrative unit named "Simcoe County". The former includes the cities of Barrie and Orillia; the latter does not. Similar situations apply to Wellington (Guelph), Brant (Brantford), Peterborough County (City of Peterborough) etc. How can we best show this in the table? Tompw (talk) 12:49, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Also, Middlesex has London, Essex has Windsor, Elgin has St. Thomas, Hastings has Belleville, Frontenac has Kingston, Leeds and Grenville has Brockville, etc. Personally I think this whole setup needs to be rebuilt from the bottom up to be based on the administrative divisions that have an actual impact on the lives of residents (bylaws, services, taxes, ownership/liability of public property, etc.), and not the census divisions that are purely for statistics. Just means demographic information, in some cases, will have to come from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities or the municipalities themselves rather than StatsCan. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 14:20, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Application of the seat concept in Ontario

Bearcat, Earl Andrew, Darkcore, Snickerdo, Vaselineeeeeeee et al: this article, in all four tables, has a "seat" column. Is the term "seat" actually in use in Ontario to signify the community locations in which counties, regional municipalities, districts, and CD-level single-tier municipalities are administered from? Or is the "seat" concept simply a colloquial extrapolation of the county/seat concept that is widespread in the United States? If the former, are there reliable sources that verify application of the "seat" concept, particularly in legislation, provincial publications, municipal organizations, etc.?

Also, in the first table on this page, it is peculiarly redundant to have a column that states Subdury, Hamilton, Ottawa, and Toronto are the seats of the cities of Greater Sudbury, Hamilton, Ottawa, and Toronto. Perhaps the entries for those four should be null as cities don't have seats and it is self-explanatory? Cheers, Hwy43 (talk) 00:15, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

If not seat, what other term would you use? I know my old atlases use the term 'seat' for Ontario's counties. Probably used a lot more historically. -- Earl Andrew - talk 00:41, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

It depends on the provincial or territorial jurisdiction. In the absence of any formal alternative to seat, it is simply an office location or administrative location. We have a county-obsessed disruptive IP editor operating throughout western and northern Canada trying to impose the county/seat concept across rural municipality types. I am trying to determine which provinces in central and eastern Canada have a justified, genuinely accepted county/seat relationship. I have confirmed NS and PE (historical for sure). In process of doing same for shire towns in NB. I think Ontario is justified. Just trying to confirm the connection. Hwy43 (talk) 00:57, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Territorial Districts versus Districts

Reading through the relevant legislation for Ontario's Districts, I'm fairy certain their official title is "Territorial District" not "District". They're referred to as such in the Municipal Act, 2001 and Division of Ontario into Geographic Areas, Ontario Regulation 180/03. Additionally, instead of the districts being called "Algoma District ", "Cochrane District", ect, O Reg 180/03 explicitly refers to them as "Territorial District of Algoma", "Territorial District of Cochrane", ect. WanukeX (talk) 23:40, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Lack of useful map in this article

Wouldn't it be a good idea to include at least one useful map (showing the primary administrative divisions and major settlements of the province of Ontario) in this article, since, perplexingly for a supposedly "encyclopedic" project, there isn't such a map to be found in the current version of the Ontario article? 98.123.38.211 (talk) 04:15, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 21 November 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) ~/Bunnypranav:<ping> 13:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

---

List of census divisions of Ontario → List of administrative divisions of Ontario – 95% of this article content is *about* administrative divisions, not about census divisions, and I'd argue that administrative divisions are a lot more important than how the census is subdivided. Currently the page *lists* census divisions but categorizes them by their form of administration which is strange, and leads to confusing results for Brant/Brantford and Haldimand/Norfolk. A separate page about census divisions could also be created although I think just specifying within this page where there are differences would be sufficient. Somatochlora (talk) 16:38, 21 November 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. charlotte ^👸♥ 20:20, 28 November 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Raladic (talk) 02:26, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Alternative would be to reword a lot of this page and make a new one for administrative divisions. I don't haves strong opinions either way but I think the above move would probably keep edit history intact in a more clear way and require less changes overall. Somatochlora (talk) 16:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Administrative divisions would have to cover lower tier municipalities as well, if not all census subdivisions in the province. Plus, I don't think the term "administrative division" is used very much by governmental agencies, while the term "census division" is very much used by Statistics Canada. -- Earl Andrew - talk 18:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Hmm fair point about the lower-tier subdivisions. You could rename it first-level but that gets awkward. Mostly I'm reacting to the problem that:

• It is definitely useful to have a page explaining what a single-tier vs. regional municipality vs. county vs. district means in the Ontario context, and listing them
• This page does a pretty good job of that, and where it doesn't it's because this information has been awkwardly shoved into a page about census districts
• Nearly all the text on this page is about these adminstrative differences, their history etc., with little relevance to census divisions
• Many other pages link here, I think mostly in contexts where the administrative divisions are much more relevant than the census divisions

Any thoughts on another way to resolve this? Somatochlora (talk) 17:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Note: Canadian Wikipedians' notice board has been notified of this discussion. Raladic (talk) 02:25, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.