Talk:Millennium Stadium

Other Millennium Stadiums

I vaguely recall at the time of there being plans for three Millennium Stadiums- (i.e. given Millennium Commission Money improvemnts) Hampden Park in Scotland, The Commonwelath Games/ City of Machester Stadium in England. Anyone got any sources for this and when the term Millennium Stadium became specifically associated with the Arms Park site and not a generic term for Millennium Commission supported stadiums?

Untitled

Crowd of 75,100 was present (BBC) for Wales v Scotland, Rugby Union, Six Nations, 10 February 2008. Just wondering how that's possible if the capacity is 74,500. BBC did say it was the biggest crowd ever there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.129.218.91 (talk) 15:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

They have recently added extra seating, although I do not believe it is permanent, and so is not taken into account in the official capacity. Nouse4aname (talk) 14:04, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Millenium Stadium, yes! largest stadium with a retractible roof, but the second in Europe. The Amsterdam Arena was first. Not a great photo really.

Nothing about the lucky/un-lucky dressing rooms ... an unbeaten run ended by Brentford FC

This article really needs a Six Nations rugby image. Narrasawa 10:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Millennium Stadium/Arms Park/National Stadium

I removed "Cardiff Arms Park" from the "former names" section of the info box. The stadium has only ever been called the Millennium Stadium. It was built to replace the old "National Stadium", which was never (officially) called the Arms Park (although unofficially, and incorrectly, many people did refer to the old stadium as the Arms Park). The Arms Park refers to the area of land on which the two stadia are built (Millennium Stadium and the Cardiff RFC Ground). The Cardiff RFC/Cardiff Blues Ground is the stadium that is actually known as the Arms Park. Nouse4aname 14:12, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Millennium Stadium is Smaller Than Twickenham

The Millennium Stadium Was Third Largest Stadium in the United Kingdom When Redevelopment of Twickenham Was complete on 5th November 2006, And Wembley Stadium Was completed on The 9th March 2007 so it is the fourth Largest Stadium. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.21.231.38 (talk) 18:39, 12 May 2007 (UTC).

WHy were the cup finals not held in Twickenham? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ajuk (talk • contribs) 13:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Millennium Stadium logo.jpg

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Millennium Stadium/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Intro

Hello! I'm weebiloobil, and I will be reviewing this article. Feel free to post comments wherever you like, whether here, my talk page, or the Millennium Stadium itself, although messages in the later situation may not get read. Good luck! - weebiloobil (talk) 11:45, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi weebiloobil,

I still have a few more references to add and some paragraphs to be reworded. Can you please give me a few days to get the article closer to becoming a good article? The article before this one was nominated about one month before this one, so I thought I had plenty of time...sorry. Seth Whales (talk) 18:50, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't strictly matter. I can provide a review within 7 days from now, and if it still needs work, it can go on hold for a further 7 days. The article seems in good shape as it is. Just a pointer, though - REM played at the Cardiff International Arena, not the Millennium Stadium (I should know, I was there). I will continue to monitor this article, and I can review it whenever you're ready. Thanks - weebiloobil (talk) 19:32, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply and the information on REM...this is the stuff I needed to get further references on, thanks for the starter. Seth Whales (talk) 23:20, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The article is now in a better state, so is just about ready for review. I will still probably tinker with it a bit (no major changes, just minor). Seth Whales (talk) 16:16, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Okely-dokely. I shall probably be done with the review this time tomorrow, but, of course, feel free to tinker - weebiloobil (talk) 19:45, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I've now finished tinkering...thanks. Seth Whales (talk) 12:07, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

The Review

So here it is, merry christmas, everybody's having fun... the long-awaited review. Read on!

Pictures

The article is well-illustrated, but there are some problems:

• Image:Millennium Stadium logo.jpg could do with converting to SVG or PNG, as described on the image page. This will not prevent it passing the GA, but it would an FA.
• Image:MillenniumStadiumInside.jpg does not have any source information, meaning I can't check the validity of the license.
• Image:2006FACupFinal.JPG should not be used until the image page has been reviewed for errors; it appears that this hasn't happened.

Commas

There are several instances throughout the article where it seems a comma would be useful, such as "...and Croke Park which is the largest". A few extra commas here and there might let the prose flow more.

Misc

• "National Stadium at Cardiff Arms Park, which was designed in 1962,[4] showed that other nations stadia had overtaken it, with Twickenham Stadium (England) with a capacity of 82,000 and Murrayfield Stadium (Scotland) with a capacity of 67,000, and with France about to build the Stade de France with a capacity of over 80,000 for the 1998 FIFA World Cup.[5]" doesn't make sense.
• "Other options included moving to a new site. But this option was discounted..." could be conjoined with (you guessed it) a comma.
• Source 44. IMDb is not generally considered a reliable source, due to the user-editable nature of the source.

Conclusion

Due to the bits of work required, I place this article on hold. I will return in 7 days (or less, if you're ready), and I shall decide then whether it passess the GA criteria. Good luck improving the article! - weebiloobil (talk) 19:05, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Reply

Thanks very much weebiloobil,

All your sugesstions will be completed within the next 7 days, I have started already. Thanks for the review. Seth Whales (talk) 19:11, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Final Review

Hopefully I have addressed the points that you have raised:

• Images

Image:Millennium Stadium logo.jpg Unfortunately I do not have the technical ability to be able to convert the image to SVG or PNG. I do not intend to nominate this article to FA.

Image:MillenniumStadiumInside.jpg This image I have now replaced in the article.

Image:2006FACupFinal.JPG the Template has now been removed by a Commons Trusted User.

• Commas

There are several instances throughout the article where it seems a comma would be useful, such as "...and Croke Park which is the largest". A few extra commas here and there might let the prose flow more.

Hopefully this is now OK.

• Misc

"National Stadium at Cardiff Arms Park, which was designed in 1962,[4] showed that other nations stadia had overtaken it, with Twickenham Stadium (England) with a capacity of 82,000 and Murrayfield Stadium (Scotland) with a capacity of 67,000, and with France about to build the Stade de France with a capacity of over 80,000 for the 1998 FIFA World Cup.[5]" doesn't make sense. Reworded.

"Other options included moving to a new site. But this option was discounted..." could be conjoined with (you guessed it) a comma. Done

Source 44. IMDb source has now been changed to a BBC source instead.

Fingers crossed. Many thanks. Seth Whales (talk) 12:06, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Brilliant. I have now promoted this article to GA-class - weebiloobil (talk) 20:59, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Live Rugby World Cup Semi-Final Screening

I have added this section to the article but I am unsure that the title is suitable. Any suggestions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wacky WeLsH LaD (talk • contribs) 15:17, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Stadium renaming

I've just reverted an edit which renamed the stadium the "Principality Stadium", since the new sponsorship deal isn't taking effect until January 2016. Can we please desist from changing the article until it can be properly updated at the proper time (except maybe for noting that the renaming is to take place), including giving an official Welsh translation of the name (Stadiwm y Tywysogaeth perhaps?). -- Arwel Parry (talk) 17:22, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. I already requested that the page be 'move protected' at WP:RFPP, but the request was declined. Btw, I doubt that "Principality" would be translated in the Welsh version since it's the name of a company, hence the translation would be "Stadiwm Principality". – PeeJay 18:37, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Ugh! Horrible name. Yes, I've noticed in the past on adverts on S4C they call the building society "Principality" even in Welsh adverts. All the more reason to wait until they officially announce what the name will be! -- Arwel Parry (talk) 21:24, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Reverted edits with Principality Stadium - the stadium will not be renamed as the "Principality Stadium" until 1 January 2016.SethWhales ^talk 23:47, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

And even then, it's only a temporary name for the duration of the sponsorship deal. Per conventions in other sports, there's no reason to move this article even after 1 January. – PeeJay 16:40, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. I've just made a null edit on the redirect Principality Stadium to prevent anyone moving the article to that title without going through RM, as experience suggests a move war is inevitable. Number 57 20:21, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Sionk has recently made a few changes that might be a bit contentious, judging from this discussion. They have replaced "Millennium Stadium" with "Principality Stadium" in several places in the article and have added an entirely new section on the new name, which seems like WP:UNDUE attention to me. They also tagged the redirect at Principality Stadium for G6 speedy deletion, which I declined as possibly controversial. Please discuss amongst yourselves. larryv (talk) 20:26, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

It's a 10-year naming rights agreement. I don't really understand the paranoia. Sionk (talk) 20:46, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Sionk. However it is interesting that the name "Millennium Stadium" was itself a deal between the Welsh Rugby Union and the Millennium Commission...see this article "The Millennium Commission's contribution to the building of a new national stadium was recognised in its original naming..." Therefore the stadium doesn't have a non-sponsorship name, so I see no problem in renaming the whole article from "Millennium Stadium" to "Principality Stadium". SethWhales ^talk 00:06, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Except the stadium is still owned by a company called Millennium Stadium plc, and when the Principality naming deal ends, the stadium will revert to being the Millennium Stadium (unless another naming deal is entered into). – PeeJay 09:17, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

To be honest, I won't lose sleep if the article remains under "Millennium Stadium" for now. I'm sure many people will continue to refer to it by its old name (similarly to the nearby Cardiff International Arena, which has a 5-year naming agreement with Motorpoint). But the 'controversy' above seems nothing more than a desire to keep the article name the same until the official rebranding (which has now taken place). Its new name is literally up in lights, bilingually too. A ten-year agreement certainly isn't temporary, by most people's definition of the word. The name will quickly become familiar, I'm sure - it has been signposted in the news for months and is used in the publicity/timetable for the Six Nations Championship. Sionk (talk) 09:40, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm actually pretty sure most people would define 10 years as temporary. It's not permanent, after all; there's a defined end point to the sponsorship by Principality (barring any extension), which is the very definition of temporary. – PeeJay 13:18, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Well, I should have expected pedantry on Wikipedia :) Instead I will say 10 years is not short term. And as you suggest, the sponsorship may be extended so the period is at least ten years. Many "Millennium" epithets are being changed as the turn of the century becomes a more distant memory. It would be bizarre if the name reverted back after the current naming deal ends. Sionk (talk) 15:28, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

*Following submission of an Uncontroversial technical request there is now a requested move discussion at Talk:Millenium Stadium.  Philg88 ^♦talk 07:45, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I just closed that as a malformed (misplaced) request. I'm thinking that changes in sponsored stadium names should generally be not be controversial, and take effect concurrently with the official name change (when the naming contract takes effect), but given the lengthy discussion above, opening a new requested move section immediately below this section might be advised. Wbm1058 (talk) 14:09, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

It would be controversial given that we usually avoid sponsored names where a common alternative exists (e.g. City of Manchester Stadium, Dean Court, Falmer Stadium, Pride Park and so on). Number 57 14:33, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I see. It seems that UK stadium naming conventions vary a bit from American stadium naming conventions in this regard. Wbm1058 (talk) 14:48, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• I feel it is quite legitimate to include the controversy over name change. I feel that the edit to delete this issue should itself either be reverted or better still, condensed into one sentence, either way I feel it should stay. Your thoughts.SethWhales ^talk 11:22, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• The opposition seems very minor (a Facebook campaign), so it's questionably important but maybe worth a mention. The issue about Principality/Country is irrelevant and a synthesis of two separate events to construct an argument. Mind you I think the section could be expanded slightly to say when the name change was announced, with a mention of the initial reaction. Sionk (talk) 11:46, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 13 February 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move after nearly a month of discussion. Cúchullain ^t/c 15:36, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

---

Millennium Stadium → Principality Stadium – The name of the Millennium Stadium officially changed on 22 January to the Principality Stadium. The new name had been flagged up for about four months beforehand and is now written large on the front of the edifice. We are currently in the middle of the Six Nations rugby championship and the stadium is publicised as the Principality Stadium on all media, across several countries. Even though we are only a few weeks since the official renaming, I would argue that Principality Stadium is quickly becoming the WP:COMMONNAME.
Earlier opposition to renaming the article has come (quite rightly) from people who have argued that the name change hadn't come into effect yet. That argument is now in the past. Others have more recently argued that Principality Stadium isn't its real name, and the new name is only 'temporary'. I would counter-argue that 10 years is certainly not short term and we have no guarantee at all (in fact it seems unlikely) that in 2025 the name will revert to Millennium Stadium. Though this initial hesitation to change the article name is understandable, there is little evidence of any 'real world' opposition to the name change, so we need to reflect the real world situation and move the article. Sionk (talk) 13:38, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

• Support - I agree with the argument. I also propose that the article should be renamed. SethWhales ^talk 21:07, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose We avoid using sponsored names for stadiums where there is a well-known alternative. See, for example, Bescot Stadium, City of Manchester Stadium, Crown Ground, Dean Court, Falmer Stadium, New Meadow, Pride Park and many more – all have sponsored names but we use the common alternative. This convention was pointed out in the section above, so it's disappointing to see it ignored. Number 57 21:37, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

I didn't ignore it, I raised WP:COMMONNAME as a counter argument. I fail to see any logic in refusing to rename the Bescot Stadium article, for example, 12 years after the stadium's name changed. This sort of 'policy' doesn't reflect the real world. Are you saying you don't like sponsorship and if the renaming was for a different reason you'd have no problem? How do we explain the Motorpoint Arena Cardiff, a few hundred metres from the Millennium Stadium? Sionk (talk) 01:02, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, the Motorpoint Arena isn't a football ground, and the convention is applied to football grounds. As for the Bescot, I don't believe I've ever heard anyone refer to it by its sponsored name when talking about the club. Number 57 12:24, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Continuing the discussion, why isn't the article about the Arsenal foolball stadium called Ashburton Grove instead of the Emirates Stadium? I agree there should be consistency, but I would suggest every football fan knows Emirates Stadium, not Ashburton Grove. Maybe this whole "convention" should be looked at again. SethWhales ^talk 10:51, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

There is almost always one exception to a rule, and Ashburton Grove is always brought up any time this discussion happens by an opponent of the convention as "proof" it doesn't exist. However, I would suggest that the number of examples cited above (plus Colchester Community Stadium, Boundary Park, Broadhall Way, Deva Stadium, Holker Street – and I can list many more if you still have your doubts) show that there is indeed consistency. Number 57 12:24, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

I notice that the page move discussion for possibly the most well known stadium you've cited, City of Manchester Stadium, was no consensus. Many of the others have not had a discussion (and some do not even mention the name change in the article). I'm not seeing an overall consensus, so I think each should be taken on its merits. Maybe it's premature to suggest an article move for Millennium Stadium though, as I say, with the international Six Nations rugby championship the media have quickly adopted the new name. Sionk (talk) 12:48, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

In the COMS discussion, every member of the football WikiProject opposed the move – the only supporters were outsiders who were not aware of the convention. By all means as the question at WT:FOOTY though. Number 57 13:48, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

I didn't know that there were any "outsiders" in Wikipedia. The convention in American sports stadium articles appears to be to change to the new sponsorship name as mentioned above. To me this makes sense. No matter whether editors like it or not, we should think of the public who just want the current information, not what a stadium was called years ago. The City of Manchester Stadium should also change to the the Etihad Stadium etc. etc. SethWhales ^talk 19:50, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

I simply meant that if you don't edit in a certain topic area, you're likely to be unfamiliar with conventions in that topic area. I'm not sure why you'd imply that I don't like the public getting the current information; the first sentence of the article states the situation very clearly: "The Millennium Stadium (Welsh: Stadiwm y Mileniwm), currently named the Principality Stadium (Welsh: Stadiwm Principality) for sponsorship purposes...". Plus, of course, there's a redirect. Number 57 20:28, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Ah the truth slips out, people who disagree are outsiders. A more direct and truthful introduction to this article would be "The Principality Stadium, previously named the Millennium Stadium in honour of the Millennium Commission...". Sionk (talk) 21:52, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - As a layman with a casual interest in sports, I hadn't heard about the name change at all until this weekend. That the media are using it is generally a good argument, but the media in such cases are prone to go with sponsored names (in a way that they probably would not with 'political' renames). I would argue that news usage should take second place to general and common usage in this case of recent change. Give it a year, till then stick with a redirect. Imc (talk) 18:01, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - we don't use sponsored names for stadiums or leagues etc. GiantSnowman 19:56, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

A pillar of Wikipedia is to Ignore All Rules. The question should be "What makes sense?". For me this "convention" just doesn't. SethWhales ^talk 20:16, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - It appears Wikipedia doesn't rename stadium articles when sponsorship changes. As long as Principality Stadium redirects here (which it does) then no need to move. I struggle to believe that the majority of people will refer to this as anything other than Millennium Stadium Jeni ^(talk) 17:40, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

From the Wikipedia policy on article titles "Sometimes, the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, COMMONNAME still applies, but we give extra weight to sources written after the name change is announced. If the sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match. If, on the other hand, sources written after the name change is announced continue to use the established name, Wikipedia should continue to do so as well, per COMMONNAME." Maybe we should just wait a couple of months until "...sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match." SethWhales ^talk 20:43, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

• Support if media coverage of this year's Six Nations, and also any future events at the stadium, are indeed making "Principality Stadium" the common name. (Basically, agreeing with everything in the quotation above.) I know that most of us will take a while to adjust to "Principality Stadium", but it was the same when the Arms Park became the Millennium Stadium, so that shouldn't really be a factor. Ham II (talk) 16:59, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Here's a start: published today; uses "Principality Stadium" Ham II (talk) 18:21, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - I am not against using sponsorship names per se - WP:COMMONNAME trumps any convention to that effect. I am vigorously opposed to the name City of Manchester Stadium, for example - in that instance, it's absolutely clear that reliable sources use the Etihad, just as they use Emirates Stadium, and that title flouts our policies. However, in this case, it is way too soon to make a call on this. Common name reflects usage in reliable sources such as books and newspapers, and we will only be sure if the new name has taken root in a majority of those sources in maybe six months to a year. There is no rush on this. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 16:44, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. I'm admittedly one of the Ashburton Grove extremists, and I believe non-North-American stadiums should never use sponsored names if an alternative is in common use per WP:COMMONNAME.  ONR  (talk)  18:46, 25 February 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Old Naval Rooftops (talk • contribs)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Millennium Stadium/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

== GA Status == See Talk:Millennium Stadium/GA1 for the reasons behind the article promotion to GA class - weebiloobil (talk) 21:05, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 21:05, 7 September 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 00:06, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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Article name

Why is the name of this article not "Principality Stadium"? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:05, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Have been wondering the same thing! That's the official name on the website after all. Rodney Baggins (talk) 17:10, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I think it should be renamed in honour of an epic and historic Six Nations Grand Slam victory! Martinevans123 (talk) 17:12, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes congratulations!! I think that stadium must be cursed (for the away teams) because England played like amateurs a couple of weeks ago and Ireland weren't much better today. As for the article, I'd just go ahead and rename it Martin. I don't think you'll get any opposition. Rodney Baggins (talk) 17:17, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I think it only polite to wait for at least 80 minutes or so while a certain team tries to win the consolation prize. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:24, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Wow, they couldn't actually manage that. But any objections to name change here? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:08, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to the article name changing but I think the reason why the article name wasn't immediately changed was probably because the common name for the stadium is still "Millennium Stadium" among locals and maybe others, even though the official name is now "Principality Stadium", because I do recall the official name for the Trafford Centre in Greater Manchester is "intu Trafford Centre" but because the common name is "Trafford Centre", it was decided after a discussion there that the article name should remain as it is as per Wikipedia:COMMONNAME. However, as I don't live in Wales or Cardiff, I don't fully know if the same principle applies here so if people support the change, I'm not opposed to it. Broman178 (talk) 11:32, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

There is a sort of unofficial policy on Wikipedia, at least on this side of the Atlantic, that we shouldn't use sponsored stadium names in cases where unsponsored names exist. We use Murrayfield Stadium, not BT Murrayfield; we use City of Manchester Stadium, not Etihad Stadium. The reason is because sponsored names are by definition transitory; while some have entered the public consciousness, especially in the case of more recent stadiums, the traditional name is usually the common name, and we should use that name as the article title. The same applies here. – PeeJay 12:00, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

The stadium was initially sponsored by the Millennium Commission. But on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME it's still well-known as the Millennium Stadium - I was watching the final match of the Six Nations and the commentator in the studio said "Millen... Principality Stadium" at least once. All the same, they'll come a time, sooner rather than later, when the article title should be updated. Sionk (talk) 12:24, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Are you sure that receiving funding from the Millennium Commission is akin to sponsorship? By that argument, you could say that the Millennium Dome is a sponsored name, which I'm not sure is the case. – PeeJay 13:04, 1 April 2019 (UTC)