Talk:Nicknames of Cleveland

Proposed deletion (June 2016)

I have requested speedy deletion. The originator has met opposition to his inclusion of nicknames in the main article's lede (Cleveland) so he has chosen to create this alternative article. He has also raised the issue at Noticeboard#Cleveland_issues_with_nicknames_in_the_introduction. This article contains no significant, reliably sourced info not included in the main article. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 04:09, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

I only added this page because there are many nicknames for Cleveland, and it makes sense to aggregate them in one place. Chicago and Pittsburgh, two cities in the same region, have similar articles. Nobody1231234 (talk) 03:08, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Also, when the page was created, there were nicknames that weren't on Cleveland that were referenced in other locations, including List of city nicknames in Ohio. If there are more nicknames that need to be added (or if you know of additional sources for the listed nicknames), please add them to the list. Nobody1231234 (talk) 22:16, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

There are references

There are 13 references on what is a relatively small article.

If you really wanted to, you could put that template on every article if someone felt there weren't enough references.

How many is too many, and when is enough enough?

Vjmlhds (talk) 13:31, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Vjmlhds- When I added the {{Refimprove}} template, there were roughly 15 nicknames listed, half of which were not sourced. Since then, Nobody1231234 has removed some of the unsourced nicknames, and added sources to others, so I have reverted to the previous version w/o the template. Levdr1lp / talk 09:15, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

"Cle" and "The Cle"

This listing keeps getting added with sources that use the terms "Cle" and/or "The Cle" in place of "Cleveland." None of these sources, however, back up the listing's claim, which is that "Cle" and "The Cle" are nicknames for "Cleveland." Using the term doesn't verify that it's a nickname. This listing needs a reliable source that says, essentially, "'Cle' is a nickname for Cleveland" or "'The Cle' is is a nickname for Cleveland." If the source doesn't have the word "nickname," it's a pretty safe bet that it won't work. RunnyAmiga (talk) 20:57, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Not edit warring - just adding SIX sources showing that CLE/"The CLE" are used to refer to Cleveland. And since YOU are the one that keeps removing sourced material, it is YOU that is edit warring. And YOU are not he one that is the arbiter of what makes a good source, so I suggest YOU cease and desist before YOU get blocked. Vjmlhds (talk) 21:26, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

I mostly certainly agree: I'm not the arbiter of what makes a good source and what doesn't, so it's a good thing I never claimed to be. You know how to decide what is and isn't a good source? Wikipedia's policy on it, set in stone for ages. In its "What counts as a reliable source" section, it says:

"...self-published media, such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs (as distinguished from newsblogs, above), content farms, Internet forum postings, and social media postings, are largely not acceptable as sources." That eliminates...

Life in the CLE, which is a blog.

Dogs in the CLE, which is also a blog.

This link to a Detroit resident's Twitter page since it's a collection of social media postings.

Your other sources were...

A story from a Columbus newspaper that used the term "CLE" as an abbreviation.

A story from Cleveland news that did the same thing. Can you point out to me where either of those sources state that "Cle" and/or "The Cle" are nicknames for Cleveland? The only use of the term on either is as an abbreviation.

And the strangest source of all, an image of a Cleveland hockey team's jersey that, exactly like the previous two sources, doesn't make the claim anywhere that "Cle" is used as a nickname for the city.

I honestly don't understand how this is complicated. You have six sources, all of which are either amateur productions or use the term "Cle" as an abbreviation. None of them use it as a nickname or claim it's a nickname. RunnyAmiga (talk) 00:09, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

Picking nits, bud. All my sources clearly show that CLE/The CLE are used to refer to Cleveland, which is the whole point of this article. Seems to me you have a little case of article ownership-itis, where it's gotta be your way, or the highway. Give it up. Vjmlhds (talk) 14:30, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

RunnyAmiga, Vjmlhds- This source, which specifically lists "The CLE" as a nickname, should settle the matter. Levdr1lp / talk 17:24, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

@Levdr1lp: Thank you for finding that source. Vjmlhds (talk) 20:13, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

As soon as I hovered over the link and saw "prnewswire," I thought, no way we're seriously trying to insert a press release as an independently-reviewed source. Because press releases aren't considered reliable sources because they're not independently reviewed.

At this point, the constant hunting for a source for a nickname that nobody (repeat: nobody) uses to refer to Cleveland is the tail wagging the dog. You've got something you want to insert in the article and come hell or high water, you're going to keep ignoring evidence to the contrary until you find a source that verifies what you believe is true. We're up to seven sources. I've explained why each of them violates policy or isn't relevant. I have seriously considered every single one of them and I've taken the time, for each, to explain why they don't work. The response? Not a single word, not one, that explains how the sources adhere to policy. Instead, User:Vjmlhds accuses me of picking nits and acting as the sole arbiter of what policy is while never pointing out what policy I'm violating, and now User:Levdr1lp finds another source that ignores a policy that's been around for a long, long time. That nobody's found a single reliable source that adheres to policy ought to tell you something: while Cleveland's got plenty of nicknames, "Cle" and "The Cle" don't qualify. RunnyAmiga (talk) 21:23, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

RunnyAmiga- Please. WP:SELFPUBLISH states to use caution when considering such sources -- including, yes, press releases -- not that we may never under any circumstance use them (surely there must be some reason we have the {{Cite press release}} template, don't you think?). The PR Newswire link is not a tweet, forum post, or blog entry from some anonymous Internet user. It's a joint press release from the tourism bureaus/agencies of both Cleveland & Philadelphia. Honestly, Runny, it's starting to feel like you're stubbornly rejecting any link found just for the sake of rejecting it. Levdr1lp / talk 21:44, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

I'll just leave these here. At some point common sense must take over:

• "5 places to celebrate National Wine Day in CLE"
• "Neighbors fed up with crime on CLE's east side"
• "StartMart growing companies in the CLE"
• "Will the RNC pay off for the CLE?"
• "No Sleep in the CLE with Justin Markert and Singer/Songwriter Megan Zurkey" (episode from a Cleveland Scene podcast "No Sleep in the CLE"- several more examples)
• "Things to do this weekend in the CLE"
• "6 priciest cars at the 2015 Cleveland Auto Show (video): Kristel's CLE"
• "It’s a showcase of comics done good from CLE..."
• "From Refugee To Neighbor: Stories From the CLE"

Levdr1lp / talk 22:30, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

@RunnyAmiga: When I said you were picking nits, I was talking how you were you trying to find the most minute reason/excuse you could to reject CLE/The CLE. Between myself and Levdr, we've come up with 16 different references showing uses of CLE/The CLE. You want a specific policy you're violating - how about WP:Own? Your actions certainly look like someone who is hell bent on pushing his views even though 2 other editors have provided multiple sources to show otherwise. If there's anybody that can tell what a stubborn, "my way or the highway" editor looks like, it's me (it's like the theory that the one who can best tell when someone is a junkie, is another junkie). You're fighting a losing battle...quit while you're ahead - you'll be saving yourself a lot of grief. Vjmlhds (talk) 00:33, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

City of Cleveland seal

Assuming the Cleveland seal is free -- the file has no source information and definitely does *not* qualify as {{PD-textlogo}} despite the presence of a PD license -- I don't see a good enough reason to use it here. Just because a file technically can be used does not mean it should be. The seal says nothing about any one of the nicknames listed on this page, or about the subject of Cleveland nicknames generally. MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE Levdr1lp / talk 16:15, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

No issues here. Vjmlhds (talk) 20:14, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

"City of Champions"?

These two edits are loaded with original research and speculation. The Cleveland.com source does not mention either the Lake Erie Monsters or Stipe Miocic. Same goes for the Eagle-Tribune source. Neither source uses the word "nickname", nor do they say anything along the lines of "Cleveland, also known as the 'City of Champions'..." I also think the political spokesman quoted in the Cleveland.com source is more concerned about making political hay for his boss than objectively speaking on the subject. Lastly, the Eagle-Tribune misquotes Mike Breen's call at the end of the 2016 NBA Finals Game 7: Breen does not say "Cleveland is the City of Champions" (emphasis added), but rather "Cleveland is a city of champions once again" (emphasis added; don't believe me on the wording? check YouTube). Let's wait more than a week before declaring this not-so-NPOV phrase a nickname for the city. Levdr1lp / talk 16:55, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

No issues here. Vjmlhds (talk) 20:14, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

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