Talk:Once Upon a Time in the West

Where was it filmed?

I came to OUATITW specifically to find out where it was filmed. Anyone reviewing, who knows it might be a good thing to add. thanks anyway —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.106.192.144 (talk) 21:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Like all Leone's Westerns it was shot in Spain, with the one authentic location shot being Arizona's Monument Valley region (only for the shots of the wagon taking Claudia out to McBaine's farm). Used to lend a sense of authenticity to the the Western epic, this sequence of "trek' shots has became legendary, but not as legendary as the "West Shot" which has been copied by many famous directors (including Robert Zimeckis in BTTF3) wherin the camera dollies up over a rooftop to reveal a classic western main street (which Leone shot on the backlot in Spain). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.93.79.233 (talk) 14:14, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Images

Do we really need two Fair Use images just to illustrate what the actors look like in their roles? We can already see this in the movie poster provided. They really don't add enough to justify their inclusion. Unless anyone can give me a substantial reason for them being here, I'm going to nominate them for deletion. Thanks, Lithoderm 05:07, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I think that the poster only is not enough. 173.186.212.194 (talk) 12:41, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Runtime in infobox

I don't understand why my edit has been reverted: the article states that the movie has first been released in Europe with a runtime of 166 minutes, then edited by Paramount for the US release. So wouldn't the original runtime, both time wise and creator wise, be 166 minutes? I found no rule about runtimes in infoboxes, neither in WP:MOSFILM nor on Template:Infobox_film. Sff9 (talk) 21:23, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

If this is a serious point, maybe there should be a better, more authoritative point that a blog review that says "Once Upon a Time in the West kicks f****** ass! It’s the sort of f******-a good time that leaves me pleased with the world and all of its contents." and another review that is actually for a completely different film.

I mean it's the indiscriminate use of use of these sorts of low quality sources that renders Wikipedia a joke in academic circles. Verlaine76 (talk) 16:32, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Error at the end of the plot section

Hiya! Just watched the restored Blu-ray version and checked the following point by advancing frame by frame:

The current plot section states that Harmonica's older brother kicks him away and thus gets hung on the village bell. There is no indication of Harmonica being kicked away; rather he collapses from exhaustion, which was kind of the point of making Harmonica part of the execution of his brother. If you watch frame by frame you'll see that his brothers feet do not make any kind of kicking movement, Harmonica just crumbles away from beneath him.

And to be honest, I've never before heard or read anyone say otherwise. But me reviewing the movie could be borderline OR, so if anybody else has the movie and wants to check this out as well, please do. I won't be making any changes either way, my position is clear and I'll leave it to the active editors to discuss this and reach a consensus.

Cheers! 188.107.120.232 (talk) 01:26, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Have noticed the same thing: Harmonica bears a dubious guilt, be Frank the true killer. Harmonica's brother does not kick him. dino (talk) 22:46, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Comments on versions

The introduction uses 2 hours and 46 minutes or 166 minutes for the "original version" later called "International Version" and "European version". The box and the "Releases" paragraph use 165 minutes. This is inconsistent with both naming and timing.

The box at the top uses "165 minutes (International Version)" later labeled "European release". The "European release" section does not mentioned that the version is 165-minute long. Also, the box does not list the 145-minute "American release" version. Moreover, the "Director's cut" version says "more recent home video releases have used the international cut" but the box never uses "international" but rather "European". The box and the "Director's cut" paragraph should be consistent with the naming.

I think the "Releases" paragraph should list the versions from the longest to the shortest.

There is no explanation behind the low box office sales in the U.S.A. It would be nice to add that information. The movie in France, if not the rest of Europe, did well.

ICE77 (talk) 09:05, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120710115532/http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091230/ap_en_mo/us_classic_films_glance;_ylt=Am9aCMfxzzsN4EY9F802IESs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNzcHU5NnU4BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkxMjMwL3VzX2NsYXNzaWNfZmlsbXNfZ2xhbmNlBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDMTAEcG9zAzcEcHQDaG9tZV9jb2tlBHNlYwN5bl9oZWFkbGluZV9saXN0BHNsawMyNW5ld3RpdGxlc2E- to http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091230/ap_en_mo/us_classic_films_glance;_ylt=Am9aCMfxzzsN4EY9F802IESs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNzcHU5NnU4BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkxMjMwL3VzX2NsYXNzaWNfZmlsbXNfZ2xhbmNlBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDMTAEcG9zAzcEcHQDaG9tZV9jb2tlBHNlYwN5bl9oZWFkbGluZV9saXN0BHNsawMyNW5ld3RpdGxlc2E-
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Generally regarded claim

The end of the introduction section states "The film is now generally acknowledged as a masterpiece and one of the greatest films ever made." The cited reference supports this using the opinion of a single movie reviewer. I think "generally acknowledged as a masterpiece" is too strong when only supported by a single opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kuchenmeister58 (talk • contribs) 03:04, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

"Once upon a Time in the West, Italian western film, released in 1968, that was considered by many to be Sergio Leone's operatic masterpiece." https://www.britannica.com/topic/Once-upon-a-Time-in-the-West Chrisrushlau (talk) 02:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

The Train Robbers references this film

The opening scene of The Train Robbers, 1973: http://westernsontheblog.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-train-robbers-1973.html First paragraph after the cast list. It was tv in the UK yesterday, at the time of writing, and I thought of OUATITW straight away. Middle More Rider (talk) 15:52, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Film References

Shane (1953): The massacre scene in West features young Timmy McBain out hunting with his father, just as Joey does in this movie. The funeral of the McBains is borrowed almost shot-for-shot from Shane.[40]

Ok - I haven't read Frayling but I do know both films, especially Shane and 1) In his commentary Frayling quite rightly doesn't mention Joey hunting with his father cos that never happens though Joey is playing at shooting the deer with a stick. Life and death are more real in the Leone to that extent anyway. And 2) the funeral scenes are in now way whatsoever the same other than using ropes to lower the coffin The Leone has no hymn, no music, no dropping of earth by the widow, no cut-away to town, no horse threatening to bite, no grieving dog, no speech - nothing. Far from being a shot for shot if it resembles anyway there is a fairly sudden walking off - though not a "Put an amen to that" as the commentator mentions in relation to The Searchers Sothe second half of the reference needs to go whilst the first can refer to Joey's play hunting.

The West is a fairy tale?

The Italian title seems to suggest that the very concept of "the West" is a fairy tale. The US title suggests that the story is a particular fairy tale without calling into question the "reality" of the West, even suggesting it was the kind of place in which mythic things could happen. Am I right? Starple (talk) 17:54, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello, Starple, and welcome to Wikipedia. Per the policy advice at WP:NOTFORUM, it's not appropriate here for us to ponder the meaning of creative works. However, the original title is C'era una volta il West, which pretty much leads directly to the English "once upon a time", which we also use for our fairy tales. (This is in marked contrast to the German title, Spiel mir das Lied vom Tod ["Play me the song of death"].) I have no idea how Italian fairy tales traditionally begin. Perhaps Leone was playing with the mythos of the Old West. But if so, it's up to reliable sources to reveal (or debunk) the notion, and I'm not aware of any. We needn't wonder about it here. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 01:29, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

C'era una volta is the traditional start to Italian fairy tales. I was raising the point because it is interesting to know Leone's attitude to the West. I am not competent to change the article on the basis of my knowledge so I put it here in case someone else can provide a reliable source to add to the article itself. It seems to me that was an appropriate use of the talk section. Try not to be a prig, JohnFromPickney. Starple (talk) 12:07, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

I try to not be a lot of undesirable things, Starple. And while I agree it would be interesting to know Leone's attitude, idly pondering it here, as I thought you wanted to do, is inappropriate. Not everybody who edits a talk page knows about NOTFORUM and TPG, so I was trying to point to them. And after all, I did respond to you. Happy editing,— JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 03:00, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Cast

Jason Robards played Morton the crooked Railroad man, Lee Marvin played Cheyenne. 184.99.186.75 (talk) 01:40, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

All the reliable sources, including the film's credits, say that Robards played Cheyenne. Gabriele Ferzetti played Morton. DonQuixote (talk) 13:44, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Sexual encounter of Frank and Jill

One has tried to insert material about the sexual encounter of Frank and Jill, which may well have been a rape, see, e.g., https://www.slashfilm.com/974492/henry-fondas-first-ever-love-scene-got-once-upon-a-time-in-the-west-off-to-an-awkward-start/ ,

    It's not as in-your-face as the controversial rape scenes in Leone's later film "Once Upon a Time in America,"
    but there's a threat of coercion hanging over Claudia's twisted "love" scene with Frank, as he caresses her and   
    says, "I'm beginning to think I might feel a little sorry killing you. You like being alive?"

and https://www.filmsite.org/onceuponatimeinthewest.html ,

    the sequence of Frank's brutal love-making rape of the seductive ex-whore Jill, when he told her while on top of 
    her: "I think, yeah. ... You also like to feel a man's hands all over you. You like it? Even if they're the hands 
    of the man who killed your husband. What a - what a little tramp. Is there anything in the world you wouldn't do 
    to save your skin?"

etc. (other sources available) So what should be done? Thanks.

47.149.214.237 (talk) 01:58, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

As you will already have noted, yet another editor has objected to your WP:EDITORIALIZING, which is a form of original research. The fact that some journalists have interpreted the sexual encounter between Jill and Frank as rape is hardly the last word on the subject. One scholar at least treats the episode as more nuanced - John Fawell, The Art of Sergio Leone's Once Upon A Time In The West (McFarland, 2005), particularly in the section "Jill and Cheyenne" (pp.79-81). That there is a sexual encounter of some sort is part of the film, but qualifying that with adjectives goes against editing guidelines. Since there is controversy over how the episode is perceived, discussion of that, with WP:RS, might be better left to the body of the article. Sweetpool50 (talk) 11:04, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I got the dreaded "reached a page that is unavailable for viewing" result for Fawell, but maybe I'll see it some day. ..."body of the article" means in some other place than the "Plot" section? That would make some sense. (Though the article doesn't have a "Themes" section...hmm.)

Okay, I'll just say "after a sexual encounter with Frank where he discusses killing her", which is literally and inarguably true; "I might be a little sorry killing you", an exact quote from Frank during the scene, is discussing killing her, by definition. I don't believe this is editorializing. But if people think it is, they can always react.

In any case, and especially given the odiousness of violence against women, and coerced sex (or even "arguably-coerced sex"), I thought the article should make some mention of the sexual encounter and its unpleasant aspects.

Again, thanks for your time and commentary. 47.149.214.237 (talk) 12:35, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Saying "I might be a little sorry killing you" is not discussion . Fawell seems to think it makes Gill more resolute to bring Frank down, which is why she is so enraged that Harmonica helps Frank avoid being shot in the street. Availability of Google Books differs from country to country; try typing the sentence "When you're finished, all I'll need is a tub of boiling water and I'll be exactly where I was before" (between quotation marks) into Google Search and see what comes up. Sweetpool50 (talk) 14:13, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Here's a thought, why don't you compile enough material to write a well-written Themes section or a well-written article on Sexual assault themes in cinema with this film as one of the examples. As it is now, it just seems like something more fitting for IMDb trivia. DonQuixote (talk) 16:02, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

"Spiel mir das Lied vom Tod" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Spiel mir das Lied vom Tod has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 September 28 § Spiel mir das Lied vom Tod until a consensus is reached. ArcticSeeress (talk) 21:00, 28 September 2023 (UTC)