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Talk:Paul Klee

Latest comment: 4 months ago by 209.247.41.34 in topic Wallace Stevens
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Former good article nomineePaul Klee was a Art and architecture good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
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January 9, 2013Good article nomineeNot listed
On this day...A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on June 29, 2020.

Untitled

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This article was vandalized previously (everything was deleted and all it said was "poopie") so I rebuilt it. However, seeing as you know much more as I do on the subject matter, please edit it to return it to its former glory. Qmwne235 Thurs, 2 March 2006 11:22:25 -600

Moved the most recent version to the Talk: page. It seems rather inferior to the previous version by Camambert. It can possibly be merged somehow in future though. Kpjas Sun, 29 Dec 2002 18:35:20 +0100

Paul Klee (1879-1940)

Paul Klee was born on the December 18 1879 in Münchenbuchsee near Bern. His father was organist and music teacher at the local school. His mother was said to be a gifted singer, who soon started to encourage her sons musical ambitions.

Klee became a good violinist and also showed an early talent for writing. After getting his school-leaving certificate, at the age of 19, Klee moved to Munich in the year of 1898, where he first started to learn at the private art school of Heinrich Knirr, a member of the Munich secession.
Later he studied at the academy as one of the students of the famous Franz von Stuck.

After his trip to Italy in the year 1901 he started his first independent works figured etchings. His stay in Milan, Genoa, Rome and Naples with its Mediterranean colours, its liveliness and also Italian architecture influenced Klee a lot.

In 1906 Klee married Lily Stumpf. The couple moved to Munich to exhibit his etchings at the secession. One year later their son Felix was born.
The following years Paul Klee went into works by Goya, William Blake and Aubrey Beardsley. Klee produced a number of black-white prints and drawings.
Artists like Cezanne, Matisse and especially Van Gogh had a lot of influence on him. In 1911 Klee joined the artists` group Der Blaue Reiter, together with Wassily Kandinsky, Gabriele Münter, Franz Marc, Alfred Kubin, Alexej Jawlensky, Marianne Werefkin and August Macke.
Paul Klee especially showed a lot of interest in childrens paintings and folk art.

He showed his works at the second exhibition of Der Blaue Reiter. On the 5th of April Klee left Germany to move to Tunisia. The oriental landscape, colours and clothes fascinated and influenced him.
During the first World War the painter found his friends spread all over Europe. On the 11th of March also Klee was called up. After the end of the war he moved back to Munich and started a lot of oil paintings.
On the 25th of November in 1920 Paul Klee got his calling for the builders house in Weimar. There he got his own studio and gave lectures in creation and shaping. Due to this job his estimation rose. Everywhere in Germany and also other countries Klee` s exhibitions of his works took place.
During the Twenties Klee wrote works about modern art and the basics of his teaching.
In December 1928 the artist again left Germany to move to Egypt which again influenced his paintings a lot.

In 1931 he started to work as art teacher at the academy of Düsseldorf. When Hitler came to power, Klee had to leave the country.
The exhibition Degenerate Art in 1937 included seventeen works by Paul Klee. He finally stayed in Bern, moved to Italy and France and met some of his old friends again. Paul Klee died in 1940 due to a skin disease.

Drawing is just taking a pencil for a walk —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.139.149.34 (talk • contribs) 20:39, October 17, 2005 (UTC)

scleroderma diagnosis

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It appears sleroderma was not recognized as a disease until after his death: Paul Klee Centrum —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jwy (talk • contribs) 18:07, January 3, 2006 (UTC)


Jewish painter

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In no source that I know of does he appear as a jewish painter. His father was german and his mother swiss. But I could be wrong, so I ask anyone to show me a source that proves that he was in fact jewish. User:Mistico

Klee's Heritage

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Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I consider myself a relative authority on Klee, and within the 15 books on him I have in my library and various visits to his collections around the world, his heritage is always cited as German and Swiss. Never have I seen it listed as Jewish. He was Swiss and German. However, he does use the star of David in a number of paintings as a letimotif, and he was definitely an early enemy of the Nazis, having been forced to flee Germany before the infamous 1937 Nazi Degenerate Art Show. Though he was featured in this showing alongside many of his close Jewish friends, the show was not limited to Jewish artists, and included works by many groups of people the Nazi's wished to malign.

Thank you for rebuilding this page kpjas. Why on earth would someone erase the whole thing and write 'poopie'? a Nazi perhaps?!

Yes, maybe a Nazi. 

==Klee Commenters==

I think Paul Klee is a very fine artist!

If i were to choose my favrite artist, it be Paul Klee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.11.234.165 (talk) 01:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC) he had a pet dog —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.247.45 (talk) 17:29, 31 October 2009 (UTC)Reply

Use of Quote

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Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Klee's quote regarding his attempts to effectively use color ("a long struggle lies in store for me in this field of color”) is used twice in the article, in both the 'early life and training' and 'early career and marriage' sections. The first use is in relation to his trip to Italy (1901-1902), while the second appears to correspond with his early watercolor landscapes (both 1913). It also looks like it was taken from two different sources, as the first use has a 'that' included in the quotation marks (could just be someone's typing error though) and the second use has some more words attached to it. Using the quote twice is a bit boring, and creates confusion as to when it was actually said/written... can anyone find a source for the correct date/fix the article? Many thanks, an unregistered wiki enthusiast. 67.222.201.194 (talk) 21:54, 27 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Heinrich Knirr?

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Latest comment: 13 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

...another thing. The article mentions Klee studying under someone named Heinrich Knirr. I'm currently doing a research type project on Paul Klee, and all of my print sources that deal with his childhood also mention Knirr, but most refer to him as "E. Knirr" (except one book, which spells out his first name as "Edwin"). Neither Edwin nor Heinrich Knirr have a wiki page to link to, and the information in the article now doesn't have a citation; so I'm not sure where "Heinrich Knirr" came from. It could simply be that Mr. Knirr sometimes went by his middle name or something, I'll try to look into it. 67.222.201.194 (talk) 02:05, 29 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

okay, so after some basic google and wiki searching, it appears there were two Knirrs: Heinrich Knirr, a painter with a a private art school; and Erwin Knirr, a painter with a private art school. (I could find no Edwin Knirr, so that one print source of mine is probably wrong.) ...hrrmph. Heinrich was more of a "traditional/acceptable to the Nazi Party" kind of painter, so I suspect Klee studied with Erwin... but that's just a guess (and OR), so I don't know. I suppose I'll try to find a good source specifically saying who Klee studied with. 67.222.201.194 (talk) 02:27, 29 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

meh, google scholar isn't being very helpful either. Klee's diary, which looked promising, only uses "Knirr," with no first name (it uses "Frau" a few times, but that's German for "Mister," right?). Some other results I glanced over mention Heinrich, Erwin, and "Hermann" as Knirr's first name. the plot thickens... and by 'thickens' I mean 'becomes exhasperating,' ugh. I think I'll just leave it as is for now and research more later; I need to finish writing about the rest of his education. 67.222.201.194 (talk) 02:44, 29 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

frau is german for "woman" or "Mrs" so "Frau Knirr" would refer to a "Mrs Knirr",, (and Erwin is a male name). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.230.191.192 (talk) 11:33, 7 January 2011 (UTC)Reply

Public Domain

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Latest comment: 12 years ago9 comments3 people in discussion

Paul Klee died in june of 1940, more than 70 years ago. His works are on the public domain, aren't them? --174.36.199.203 (talk) 05:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

No. For one, all countries I know of round up to the end of the year, so his works won't be PD in the EU until 2011. Secondly, not all countries measure copyright the same way, and in the US, his works post-1922 will be copyright for 95 years from first publication.--Prosfilaes (talk) 04:16, 9 September 2010 (UTC)Reply
Looks like someone has already uploaded a whole batch of Klee images to Commons. My vote is to ignore it for now rather than to have them deleted only to have to re-upload them 2 months later. Lithoderm 01:14, 19 October 2010 (UTC)Reply
Not to comment on an old thread or anything, but why exactly would the US have a longer copyright term on Klee's work? It's the death of the author plus 70 years (rounded up), as far as I know. I've gone ahead and added some of his earlier works to the page. Lithoderm 21:19, 10 January 2012 (UTC)Reply
Why exactly wouldn't they? The US created the Universal Copyright Convention because they weren't willing to agree to the Berne Convention. They weren't part of the Berne Convention until 1989. There's three important points: one, the US measured copyright as X years from publication (now 95) and kept that for pre-1978 works; two, the URAA restored copyright to any foreign work that lost copyright in the US for various reasons; and three, works published prior to 1923 even if it hasn't been 95 years since publication, since they weren't returned to copyright when the duration was extended to 95 years.--Prosfilaes (talk) 09:45, 11 January 2012 (UTC)Reply
If this is true it will apply to many other artists whose works we are currently treating as PD: Ernst Ludwig Kirchner, Robert Delaunay, and Kasimir Malevitch are ones I can think of immediately, but there are many others. Because of the far reaching nature of this I think we should request further comment from the community at large before making a decision here. Thanks, Lithoderm 01:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)Reply
If this is true? Is there any reason to think it's not true, besides you don't like it? This is part of the standard Wikipedia copyright templates, like {{PD-1923}}. All the offending images are on Commons, where this discussion has gone on before. I have no idea what decision we are supposed to make or not make here.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:43, 12 January 2012 (UTC)Reply
Next time could you just link me to the discussion on commons instead of doing what you did there? Your tone is like someone saying "I can't believe you don't know!" without actually saying what it is I'm supposed to know. So tell me!
I don't doubt the veracity of the Berne Convention's existence, but there are various issues specific to this case. Why is the law applied unevenly? If it applies to Klee, why doesn't it apply to Kirchner? Is it because Switzerland has been constantly under one government since that time while Germany has not, and so the "nation of origin" could legally be considered different? I don't know; I'm an art historian, not a copyright attorney. If that's the case, then how can Switzerland lay claim to the entirety of his work when most of it was produced in Germany? Once again, I don't know. So please, more explanation and less of the snitty replies.Lithoderm 23:15, 14 January 2012 (UTC)Reply
Next time could you not say "If this is true" if you don't in fact have any evidence it's not true?
I don't know why you don't think it doesn't apply to Kirchner; it does. All works published after 1923 that were under copyright in their home nations in 1996 (for nations that had copyright relations with the US in 1996) are still in copyright in the US.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:14, 15 January 2012 (UTC)Reply

Dying request?

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Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

"His artwork was considered too revolutionary, even degenerate, by the Swiss authorities, but eventually they accepted his request six days after his death."

Which request is this? His request for Swiss citizenship? DS (talk) 14:44, 17 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

German article

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Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

hello,

I am currently trying to translate the German featured article. The draft is located here. Maybe apart of the so-so English, what do you think about the work so far? Should I continue, or should I drop it? Any help would be appreciated! Regards.--♫GoP♫TCN 16:17, 28 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

GA Review

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Latest comment: 11 years ago87 comments4 people in discussion
GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Paul Klee/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: TonyTheTiger (talk · contribs) 23:43, 29 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

I will do this review.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:43, 29 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

WP:LEAD
  • There should be an opening statement describing his notable roles: I.e., he was a painter, sculptor, draftsman, teacher, etc.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:38, 7 December 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • There should be a statement of the notable results of each of these roles. I.e., enumerate notable works and then expound upon this list with more detail in the main text.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:38, 7 December 2012 (UTC)Reply
  • This is an extremely long article (23,638 characters of readable prose) for a 1003-character one-paragraph LEAD. Please make sure that a summary of each section of the article is included in the LEAD. I expect something closer to three or four paragraphs and between 2500 and 3000 characters.--TonyTheTiger (T/C

/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:49, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Early life and training
Affiliation to the "Blaue Reiter", 1911
Trip to Tunis, 1914
Military career
  • Since I don't know this artist well and can't remember what his ethnicity is, you need to tell me what "reserve forces". It seems like this should be affiliated with some military force that has a link if not be a link itself. There must be a Fooian army or something that this reserve force is affiliated with.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:17, 6 December 2012 (UTC)Reply
Mature career
Death
Style and methods
  • Many of the points in this section should be made by example of notable works. E.g., several exmaples should illustrate the following points: "Many of his works and their titles reflect his dry humor and varying moods; some express political convictions. They frequently allude to poetry, music and dreams and sometimes include words or musical notation. The later works are distinguished by spidery hieroglyph-like symbols."--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:04, 9 December 2012 (UTC
Works
Mystical-abstract period, 1914–1919
Works in the Bauhaus period and in Dusseldorf
Last works in Switzerland
Contemporary view on Paul Klee
Musical interpretations
Architectural honours

When is User:Tomcat7/Sandbox7 going to be incorporated into this article? If this review does not start to move forward again soon, I will have to fail it.--

I will finish the work by tomorrow. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 16:21, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Just going to chime in here with the newly added chunk of prose that needs fixes.

"Some of Klee's early preserved children's drawings, to which his grandmother encouraged, were listed on his catalogue raisonné." - Wouldn't it be childhood drawings? Why do we need the comment about his grandmothers encouragement?

"]]. A total of 19 etchings were produced during the Bern years; ten of these were made between 1903 and 1905 in the cycle "Inventionen" (Inventions)," - The sentence seems to be disjoined from the context, but that's just my opinion.

"Klee's solitary early work ended when he met in 1910 graphic artist and illustrator Alfred Kubin, who inspired Klee." Prose issues. 'when he met' is out of place. But the end is also awkward and feels lamely attached on and is again subjective.

"During his twelve-day educational trip to Tunis in April 1914 Klee produced with Macke and Moilliet watercolour paintings, which implement the strong light and colour stimulus of the North African countryside in the fashion of Paul Cézanne and Robert Delaunays' cubistic form concepts." Should be at least two sentences here, an extra comma or two and a bit of clean up for clarity. It just runs together.

"Under the impression of his military service he created the painting Trauerblumen (Velvetbells) in 1917, which, with his graphical signs, vegetal and phantastic shapes, is a forerunner of his future works, harmonically combining graphic, colour and object." Where did this come from? I do not believe that Tomcat7 wrote this.

"In the 1918 watercolour painting Einst dem Grau der Nacht enttaucht, a compositional implemented poem, possible written by Klee, he incorporated letters in small, in terms of colour separated squares, cutting off the first verse from the second one with silver paper." This is about right... again bad prose.

"Here, Klee did not lean on Delaunay's colours, but on Marc's, although the picture content of both painters does not correspond with each other." Sounds a bit original research without a source when the they do not 'correspond with each other'.

" After being named defamatory in the Munich exhibtion "Entartete Kunst", the painting was later bought by the Buchholz Gallery, New York, and then transferred in 1939 to the Museum of Modern Art." First part is confusing. 'named defamatory?'

"The watercolour painting appears at a first glance childish, but it allows more interpretations. The picture can be interpreted as a critic by Klee, who shows through denaturation of the birds, that the world technization heist the creatures' self-determination" Both sentences need prose work, but the last part is going to confuse just about any reader.

" The self-portrait in the same year – with the programmatic title von der Liste gestrichen (removed from the list) – provides information about his feeling after losing professorship." Bad metaphor here with 'programmatic title', many interpretations.

"The abstract portrait was painted in dark colours and shows closed eyes and compressed lips, while on the back part of his head there is a large "X", symbolizing that his art was no longer worth in Germany." The last portion after "X", has prose issues.

I'll stop now, but that is just a quick read through of errors I found with the prose. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I have tired of nudging the nominator to respond to concerns here. The article has been vastly improved by responses thus far and content added, but many issues remain. This article should be renominated at a later date. I am now FAILing this article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:11, 9 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Usage of images not in the public domain in the U.S.

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Latest comment: 9 years ago8 comments3 people in discussion

To paraphrase, Klee's works post-1922 are not in the public domain in the U.S. because their copyright in the U.S. was restored by the Uruguay Round Agreements Act when they were still copyrighted in their source countries on the URAA date (January 1, 1996).

The copyrighted works cannot be displayed here for that reason, so I will remove them once this is understood. Hekerui (talk) 13:47, 11 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Add Fair use rationales for use in the United States...Modernist (talk) 14:05, 11 March 2015 (UTC)Reply
In Visual Arts and the Law: A Handbook for Professionals, By Judith B Prowda, it is stated: "Potentially, therefore, the copyright on works by artists such as Paul Klee... could be revived." Hekerui, could you provide a link to a source that states the copyright on Klee has been revived? Coldcreation (talk) 15:24, 11 March 2015 (UTC)Reply
Check this page. The court decision makes it clear these media are copyrighted. On the Commons, deletion is the issue in question, for us here, the inclusion of these media. WP:IUP would require non-free use rationales for the use of copyrighted images. For this, we could not use the Commons images, because they don't follow WP:NFCCP. What would be left is uploading local versions that follow non-free content criteria. #3 and #8 would make usage in a gallery very questionable. This article has plenty free images, we should be able to cope using only drawings/paintings from 1922 or earlier. Hekerui (talk) 15:55, 11 March 2015 (UTC)Reply
Klee is not mentioned on the link above. Can you provide a link to a source that explicitly mentions the works of Klee as falling under URAA copyright law? Coldcreation (talk) 17:34, 11 March 2015 (UTC)Reply
Hey! I could not find anything specific about Klee and the URAA. I remember an analysis like that for Lovecraft stories, but not for this. Still, it's an issue. Works in Germany post-1922 are protected by copyright in the U.S. because their copyright was extended by the URAA. Turns out that, in the case of Switzerland, they only lengthened the copyright term to 70 years in 1992. That means Switzerland works had their copyright expire before the URAA date of 1996 and are in the public domain for this reason. So we only have to remove the late German works or justify them with a non-free use rationale for this article to comply with the image use policy. Hekerui (talk) 21:15, 11 March 2015 (UTC)Reply
Technically the images need Fair Use Rationales and need to be in the article proper and not in galleries...Modernist (talk) 23:36, 11 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

The German works post-1922 are problematic per the discussion above and I removed them. Hekerui (talk) 12:02, 19 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Friendship with Kandinsky

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Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The second paragraph under Mature Years notes that "Kandinsky joined the staff and resumed his friendship with Klee," but there was no previous mention of this friendship. It would be nice to have this fleshed out earlier. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.166.173 (talk) 13:12, 24 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Assessment comment

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Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Paul Klee/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)Press [show] to view →
Rated it as a start b/c it's definitely not a stub, and definitely not a B. Discusses his position in the world of art, but light on the personal bio data. I also rated it as a High priority b/c Klee was very important not just for his central position in the Expressionist aesthetic, but because of his role as a visible and notable detractor of Nazism and Hitler.  Erielhonan  talk | contribs   仕方が無い   06:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

Last edited at 06:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 02:28, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Reference to Gunther Schuller piece is (accidentally?) split in two

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Latest comment: 8 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Hi. My first contribution to Wikipedia! I have no intention of actually becoming an editor, so I'm just posting this for whoever would like to make use of it.

The section Musical Interpretations has the line "Other works are Abstraktes Terzett (Abstract Trio), Little Blue Devil, Zwitscher-Maschine (Twittering Machine), Arab Village, Ein unheimlicher Moment (An Eerie Moment) and Pastorale." These are sections 2 through 7, in the correct order, of the Gunther Schuller piece mentioned earlier in the same paragraph ("Gunther Schuller with Sieben Studien über Klee'sche Bilder (Seven Studies about Klee Pictures) in the years 1959/60"). The missing section 1 is Antike Harmonien (Antique Harmonies).

Also, there's no reason to give the name of the Schuller piece in German, since he was an American composer (as mentioned in the Wikipedia page on him) and composed the piece in the US, with an English title -- which, correctly, is Seven Studies on Themes of Paul Klee. The complete seven sections, in the correct order and with the correct English name, are given in many performances on YouTube (and elsewhere), for example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUmYkbCchWg. (I put this just for anyone who wants to check. Obviously this is not a source ... especially since it probably violates copyright.)

Dudley Brooks (talk) 16:54, 31 August 2016 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for spotting that, it's fixed now I think. Much of this article appears to be translated from the corresponding article in German Wikipedia, and these look like errors made in the process. Ewulp (talk) 00:34, 1 September 2016 (UTC)Reply
Thanks! Dudley Brooks (talk) 20:46, 3 September 2016 (UTC)Reply
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Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Swiss German

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Latest comment: 5 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

The de.wiki article Paul Klee says he was simply German and cites this article. Why is he described as "Swiss German" here? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:10, 18 December 2018 (UTC)Reply

Sources differ but it seems he's more often classed as Swiss (e.g., Oxford Art Online, ULAN, A World History of Art), though Britannica says he was Swiss-German. Ewulp (talk) 02:43, 19 December 2018 (UTC)Reply
Hello, I'm Swiss and I've made some researches and a speech about Paul Klee. The swissinfo article (in German) is right. I confirm that he is German and not Swiss. His father was German. He asked for the Swiss citizenship, but he died before the agreement of the Berner and Swiss authoritied. It takes a long time and it's very complicated to become a Swiss citizen (too compllicated to explain it here, but if you ask, I can explain). In the chapter "Death" of this article, it is written: " He died in Muralto, Locarno, Switzerland, on 29 June 1940 without having obtained Swiss citizenship, despite his birth in that country." This is right and contradict the introduction. Please believe sources that are the closest to the person and in the person's language, because they are more reliable. That is why I wish to correct his nationality from Swiss German to German. --Faridagadri (talk) 14:31, 3 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Wallace Stevens

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Latest comment: 4 months ago2 comments1 person in discussion

Klee was the favorite painter of noted American modernist poet, Wallace Stevens 209.247.41.34 (talk) 22:16, 23 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Example of Stevens poem that may show Klee influence:

Disillusionment of Ten O’clock

The houses are haunted By white night-gowns. None are green, Or purple with green rings, Or green with yellow rings, Or yellow with blue rings. None of them are strange, With socks of lace And beaded ceintures. People are not going To dream of baboons and periwinkles. Only, here and there, an old sailor, Drunk and asleep in his boots, Catches Tigers In red weather. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.247.41.34 (talk) 22:19, 23 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

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