Talk:Südtiroler Pfadfinderschaft

Untitled

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed change in focus of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on a separate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Naming conventions

I edited the article according to the naming conventions, see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names), in particular point 3:

3. The contents (this applies to all articles using the name in question): The same name as in title should be used consistently throughout the article. Exceptions are allowed only if there is a widely accepted historic English name for a specific historical context. In cases when a widely accepted historic English name is used, it should be followed by the modern English name in parentheses on the first occurrence of the name in applicable sections of the article in the format: "historical name (modern name)." This resembles linking; it should not be done to the detriment of style. On the other hand, it is probably better to do too often than too rarely. If more than one historic name is applicable for a given historical context, the other names should be added after the modern English name, i.e.: "historical name (English name, other historical names)". In this case, the title of the article is Province of Bolzano-Bozen.--Supparluca 08:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I am again reverting your changes-based on your own discussion above.

1. The same name as in title should be used consistently throughout the article.

• The article does so, the title of the article is Südtiroler Pfadfinderschaft, which in English comes out as South Tyrolean Scout Association.

1. if there is a widely accepted historic English name for a specific historical context

• In this case, there is a widely accepted historic English name for a specific historical context

Prior to you getting here, nowhere in the article does it reference the Province of Bolzano-Bozen, it references the South Tyrol region. You cannot make the name translate to what you wish it to say when it does not. Chris (talk) 09:14, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand. With "region" do you mean the region called here Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol? (The province of Bolzano -that you call "South Tyrol" and that this wikipedia calls "Province of Bolzano-Bozen"- is part of the region Trentino-Alto Adige). According to the naming conventions, we should use "Südtiroler Pfadfinderschaft" when referring to this association, because that is the title of this article, and not South Tyrolean Scout Association. Instead, when you write about "South Tyrol", you should use "Province of Bolzano-Bozen" according to the naming conventions because that is the title of that article. And furthermore, this article doesn't talk about historical events, this association is currently active (and was founded in 1973, not in the 19th century).--Supparluca 10:40, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

But the people in Meran, in Sterzing, in Dorf Tirol, in Bruneck all say we live in South Tyrol and we are Tyroleans/Südtiroler. You want to see Province of Bolzano-Bozen and some other Italians, too. But South Tyrol stays South Tyrol. There is the Südtiroler Schützenbund, the Südtiroler Volkspartei, the soccer club FC Südtirol, there is the Südtiroler Landtag... And the majority in South Tyrol are the German Speaking Tyroleans.Also the villages have two names (i.e. Sterzing/Vipiteno). I am every year in South Tyrol and I know many people from there and also from the Scout Association. And by the way I also know Italian speaking people from Bolzano-Bozen which say we are Südtirolesi and from South Tyrol. And there is also the Europe Region "Tyrol" consisting of Tyrol(North and East), South Tyrol and Trentino.-Phips (talk) 17:18, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Phips. — Rlevse • Talk • 17:31, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand your angry replies, I don't have prejudices against you, I think this is the first time I see you. I respect your opinion, but do you have valid arguments against my corrections? I just want to apply the naming conventions, regardless of your and my opinion.--Supparluca 18:26, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Supparluca, no one of these replies above is angry; they are explaining, as I did, why the text must stay as it is, and why it is totally in compliance with the naming conventions you mentioned. I am surprised you would see anger in any of that. If you need help with English, I will patiently walk you through it until you do understand. Perhaps there is something you are not understanding. The convention and the way it is applied here are both perfectly clear to native English-speakers. I do not want you to be angry yourself, I believe your intentions are good, you simply cannot apply them here. In friendship, Chris (talk) 19:51, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I misinterpreted the tone of these sentences: "You cannot make the name translate to what you wish it to say when it does not" and "You want to see Province of Bolzano-Bozen and some other Italians, too", but that's not important. I repeat: in the article there are various references to the province of Bolzano, for example: "The association owns two campsites in South Tyrol". The title of the article that talks about "South Tyrol" is "Province of Bolzano-Bozen"; point 3 of the naming conventions says that "The same name as in title should be used consistently throughout the article (this applies to all articles using the name in question)". In my opinion, this means that that sentence should be modified in this way: "The association owns two campsites in the province of Bolzano-Bozen". This convention seems very clear to me.--Supparluca 20:11, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I think I understand where you are going with this, and thank you for explaining. You believe the convention is speaking about the article title of one of the component subjects, that is to say, [[South Tyrol]] redirects to [[Province of Bolzano-Bozen]]. That is true. However, the convention has to do with the name of this article, not its component parts, and this article clearly has the toponym Südtiroler, having to do with South Tyrol, whether or not a different name is used for the land area. A German-speaking organization using the German name gets translated directly into English from the German. In addition, there is also [[Category:South Tyrol]], so Wikipedia also accepts the existence and use of the German name as fact. I believe you to have good intentions, therefore I propose:

1. changing the sentence to read "The association owns two campsites in the Italian Province of Bolzano-Bozen, which is coterminous with the historic region of South Tyrol."
2. in addition, if you can supply the name of the Scout organization in the Italian language, as well as the source you used to determine the name used, it should also be in the article.

Thanks for explaining your position. Chris (talk) 20:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

As German is one of the official languages of the province, there is no need for an Italian name - the associations does not have one. All Italian version of the associations name are inofficial translations. --jergen (talk) 20:56, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

In South Tyrol are 3 official languages, there is German, Ladinisch and Italian. The official website of the Südtiroler Landtag (in German) see Südtirol in German as South Tyrol. The websites of the Tourism agencies also use South Tyrol in English Example 1Example 2 Example 3.There is the the brand Südtirol/Alto Adige strongly supported by the regional goverment Dachmarke Südtirol. So Südtirol is in German a term used by tourism and official bodies. South Tyrol is used by tourism agencies and associations. So why should I on Wikipedia use Province of Bolzano-Bozen which comes from the official Italian name, why I am not allowed to use a correct English word and the English term used by the people there by the themselves and comes from the official German term? German and Italian are official languages in South Tyrol. So there musat be the two oppurtunities to use the terms comming from the official languages. And on the green scarfs for the delegation of the Südtiroler Pfadfinderschaft is written Südtirol not Province of Bolzano. By the way most Italian names in South Tyrol are inventions of Ettore Tolomei from the 20th century. And you act like one of this Italian nationalists, who want erase the German names, the traditional customs and the people should become nice Italians. We hoped this is over after 1972 and 1992. I hope I´ve a wrong picture of you. There is no Italian name of the Südtiroler Pfadfinderschaft and there is also no official Italian name of the Südtiroler Schützenbund. Thanks to Chris and jergen-Phips (talk) 21:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

This is an English encyclopedia, we don't do politics.--Supparluca 21:30, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Glad you agree. We can now close this issue. Chris (talk) 21:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Province of Bolzano-Bozen? Where is that in "Südtiroler Pfadfinderschaft"? Case closed. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:50, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on a separate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this section.

attempted a fix

I revisited this in an attempt to properly update wikilinks and also have the article be factually correct. The province is named Bolzano/Bozen. The locals will also call this area Alto Adige or South Tyrol (added that). I corrected the bit about Bolzano/Bozen being part of the 'historical' South Tyrol. There was never such a thing, South Tyrol is a word used recently as a political concept. This area was in fact part of the southern (below the alpine water divide, and in the Mediterranean basin) historical County of Tyrol, split with the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. "Southern" Tyrolers were the citizens of what is now Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol -- and then some. Hope this is sufficient of an explanation; open to any discussions feedback on the edits. regards, Icsunonove (talk) 02:30, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Reverted, since Bozen-Bolzano exist only within Wikipedia. The association is German language based, so the article should use the German terms. --jergen (talk) 17:42, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Come on now, that is absolute nonsense; the term Province of Bolzano-Bozen is used in Encyclopedia Brittanica; is that not outside of Wikipedia? Please don't just pull grand statements like that out of the air. The term Province of Bolzano/Bozen is used on the provincial website's main English webpage.[1] There was a lot of work put into the Province of Bolzano-Bozen page that discusses the various naming used; have you bothered to read that? Most importantly, this Wikipedia is English-based, so we use English terms, not German terms (regardless of the context). The page on Germany doesn't list all the major German towns in German, now does it? For example, I see you even made the link to Bolzano say Bozen, but we simply say Bolzano in English. Just because the scouting troop is German, doesn't mean we suddenly translate everything to German or to a particular German point of view. Do you understand? Now lets discuss this without an edit war, sound good? :) Icsunonove (talk) 23:06, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Jergen, he's got you there, a simple Google search shows Province of Bolzano-Bozen is NOT used only on wikipedia and it clearly is used on their own site. He also has a point we don't translate everything into the local language. For example, Köln is in Cologne, München is in Munich, etc. Let's settle this calmly. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:12, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

• Right, I even took care to put Bolzano (Bozen) and not just Bolzano. I think it is valid to add a German flavor to this article given the context, but we can't just sidestep English usage -- or for some reason have an out right push for only German (and nixing the Italian). The province this group is located in is the province of Bolzano and/or Bozen. Please take a look at the page Province of Bolzano-Bozen to see a bit of the history of why different names are used in this multilingual province. Saying the region is historically "South Tyrol" is not correct as well. Going back a couple centuries and this was but a part of a large area compromising the old County of Tyrol. Icsunonove (talk) 23:25, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not happy about you unilateral changes made without any discussion. As indicated by the archived discussion above (and as well the section deleted by Icsunonove [2]), this is a contentious issue and changes should not be made without discussion.

Province of Bolzano-Bozen clearly states that common English usage is either South Tyrole or Alto Adige and that Province of Bolzano-Bozen is a construct to avoid conflicts with little use outside encyclopedias. It even suggests that South Tyrole is slightly more used than Alto Adige. --jergen (talk) 08:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

That article suggests no such thing, and please do not propagate this so-called contentious issue to other pages. I corrected and updated links per Wikipedia policy; that requires discussion? That said, indeed, please explain what edits you have issue with on this page and lets discuss them. The scout troop is located in the province of Bolzano-Bozen, or is it not? There is text now that explains the province is also referred to as Alto Adige or Südtirol/South Tyrol. So, what specific information do you feel the article is now lacking? Icsunonove (talk) 17:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

• Follow up, you are obviously pushing a rather odd German-POV on here. I saw you even took the link to Bolzano and changed it to Bozen (Bolzano). This is NOT German Wikipedia Jergen. There are other people on this planet with other points of view. :) For example, this edit is just plain wrong [3]. You noted "consistent style in naming locations". Jergen, we use ENGLISH, that is the consistent style. :P You even reverted the correction of the Italian scout page to to English Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy. The Italian usage of Associazione Guide e Scout Cattolici Italiani is noted on that page. I just don't get it... Icsunonove (talk) 04:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

As long as you are reverting without checking functions in the infobox or text style, there is no need to discuss anything.

• Plese give a link to the manual of style that requests that cities in South tyrole must be named with the Italian version of the city's name first. Both forms are official used.
• Please give also a source for calling the association "simply SP" - this is solely an abbreviation.
• Please give a source for your changes in the section on the program. Standard English uses "ages" when referring to a age span.
• Please give a source for "Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy" as official translation of "Associazione Guide e Scouts Cattolici Italiani", see also Talk:Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy, where you can clearly see, that this English translation is non-official. --jergen (talk) 08:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Here: "3. The contents (this applies to all articles using the name in question): The same name as in the title should be used consistently throughout the article."

In this case: "Bolzano", "Merano" and "Brixen" (and also "Province of Bolzano-Bozen") without adding "(Bozen)", "(Meran)" and "(Bressanone)" (and also without "Alto Adige" or "South Tyrol", but in this case it could be added to be clearer).--Supparluca 07:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

That means: When writing an article on eg "Rome" it should be "Rome" throughout this whole article; but it does not say that you can not write "Roma" or "Rom" in an other article when linking to the correct article.

SO this rule does not answer my question. --jergen (talk) 14:26, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

It says "this applies to all articles using the name in question". So, if you write that Rome was the capital of the Roman Empire in this article, you should use the name Rome.--Supparluca 08:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out. You did surely also read the following sections of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) explaning the possible exceptions especially the section on South Tyrole referring to Talk:Communes of South Tyrol#Survey result which you should know. These rules are quite clear:

• No parentheses except for Meran/Merano
• We use the forms "Bolzano, Brixen, Brenner, Bruneck"

Conclusion 1: I'll change the article according to these rules.

Conclusion 2: I won't change "Associazione Guide e Scout Cattolici Italiani" to "Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy" since this translation is objected to even by native Italians on Talk:Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy.

I'm really wondering why you did not point directly to Talk:Communes of South Tyrol#Survey result as the relevant MoS. --jergen (talk) 15:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Where did you read that "Merano" should be followed by "(Meran)"?--Supparluca 07:39, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

As far as I found out the question of Merano/Meran was the only one that is not settled yet. The section Talk:Communes of South Tyrol#Meran(o) does not come to a conclusion; also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names does not give a clear preference (There appears to be ... is really weak and points to a non-settled question).

But I'm sure you can direct me to the relevant discussion where the question of Merano/Meran has been resolved. Please give a direct link to the relevant discussion including the section of the page. If you are not able to, I'd like to leave the article as it is. --jergen (talk) 08:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Here: the choice of the name "Merano" was settled.--Supparluca 08:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Jergen, I think you seriously need to take a step back and decide if your aggressive behavior towards this situation is based on rational thought, or your own ethnic/language and cultural background. I am a native English speaker, and in English we use simply Bolzano, Merano, Ortisei, etc. This shouldn't make you feel less because we don't use the same word you use in German. To answer your questions, I put links as their page location and then the translation, hence: Bolzano (Bozen) or Brixen (Bressanone). As you should realize, the only order is page location and then alternate name. The scout association has in HUGE letter "SP", so it is logical that this is a used abbreviation. If you believe it is not, then it should be left out of the article entirely. As far as "Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy", this is the current location of the page on English Wikipedia, so that is where it will be linked to until that changes. Now, I'll say it again, relax and try to discuss in a normal manner. This is not the place to discuss communes of BZ. Icsunonove (talk) 06:03, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

• [4] Hmm, looks like quite a lot of usage for Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy after all though. I don't care either way, but the page is located at that English name for now. Note that you quoted me a discussion from two years ago that didn't lead to any consensus or move of the page. It looks to me that this English name is used quote commonly. It does not need to be official, it just needs to be used commonly in the English language. Icsunonove (talk) 06:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I get only 16 real results when putting it in quotation marks and excluding "Wikipedia" [5]. Please read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#False positives - this is not really relevant right now but shows some of the obstacles using Google. --jergen (talk) 06:33, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Right, I'm quite familiar with the Google search process for Wikipedia. I made a mistake to leave out the quotes, apologies. Running the search again I still get 141 hits [6]. There are a few hits if you replace "and" with "&". Jergen, the bottom line is that the page on English Wikipedia is currently at Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy, and until it is moved, it should be used. Also, I personally feel it helps an English reader to go through the article easier if it is as much in English as possible, no? Also, we are using a German translation for Südtiroler Pfadfinderschaft, is it official? If not, shouldn't it be removed as well going by your logic? By the way, I tried to address your points above, please give feedback to them. Icsunonove (talk) 17:30, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

When checking Google-results, one should always go the last page for the real number of results (excluding similar pages). It is also helpful to exclude "wikipedia" and not "wiki" to remove mirror pages from the results.

I do not understand your remark concernig the lead section of this article. The naming conventions are quite clear and request editors to give a translation when the title is in any foreign language. Do you really want to discuss this topic? --jergen (talk) 19:19, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

We might want to make it clear that it is an editor-provided translation then, not really official. What do you think? It looks like the translation was basically invented on Wikipedia; Congratulations. :P Also, do you understand my explanation about the links above? I was merely taking care to list the cities at their correct English Wikipedia wikilinks and putting the alternate Italian or German name in parenthesis. The order was page-location-(alternate-name), no more, no less. As far as the Italian scouting association, I believe there is enough English usage of this name (www.scout.org, etc.) that warrants use of it on English Wikipedia. It simply makes it easier for our readers to have names in English, not lots of associations listed in foreign languages. Anyway, it seems we are splitting hair a bit now. Do we have any major issues/disagreements? :> I just feel it is incorrect to list Bozen, just because the SP is a German-speaking group. That is definitely counter "conventions". Icsunonove (talk) 22:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Please propose a wording for showing that this is an editor-provided translation. I usually used "translating as" or "roughly" depending if there were unique or multiple translations, but that was not accepted by some other users.

Concerning the place names: I do not think that we have a major disagreement there. Your earlier proposal "ARTICLE (second language)" may have seemed consitent for the editor, but not for the occassional reader: One does not understand why some places have German first and others Italian. And as far as I'm concerned, my contributions are written for the readers.

I'm not really happy with Province of Bozen-Bolzano since this is not the European usage. I just checked with the European Union: In English documents they use "South Tyrol", "Alto Adige" or "Province of Bolzano". But we cannot decide this question on this talk page.

Concerning AGESCI: Please feel free to discuss the article's title on Talk:Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy#Requested move. I would like to insert the Italian name in brackets since the English has very little usage - and again it is European custom to leave proper names (even from organizations) untranslated. --jergen (talk) 07:07, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm asking our project mediator to step in here, User:Bduke. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:10, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I am happy that the Scouts and Guides in Trentino-Alto Adige/Trentino-Südtirol don´t have this problems. So in 2007 a book was published by MASCI: SCAUTISMO - IERI E OGGI Breve storia e testimonianze di vita scout nel Trentino-Alto Adige/Pfadfindertum-Gestern und heute- Kurze Beschreibung der Geschichte und Bezeugungen aus dem Leben der Pfadfinder in der Region Trentino-Südtirol. The book is in Italian and German. The use for Italian speaking groups the Italian names and for german-speaking groups the german names. This would be the best way for the article. By the way the group of the Südtiroler Pfadfinderschaft in Bozen/Bolzano is named Haslach the AGESCI and GNGEI groups are named Bolzano and numbered.-Phips (talk) 13:15, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't get it. Are you recommending we use German for the German-based group and Italian for the Italian-based group? How about we use English? :P Icsunonove (talk) 17:33, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

In English you can use Bozen and Bolzano. There is not one name in English such as Vienna for Wien(German)/Bécs(Hungarian)/Viedeň(Slovakian)/Vídeň (Czech). All this languages are spoken in Vienna. So we should use the name Bozen when we talk about groups of the Südtiroler Pfadfinderschaft and Bolzano at the time we talk about MASCI, AGESCI and GNGEI.-Phips (talk) 13:13, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Mediation

Greetings, Icsunonove and jergen. On Rlevse's request, I have agreed to take a look at this and see if I can help you to get agreement. Please be patient. It will take me a while to understand the issues. I would appreciate it if you could leave the article as it is now, while I do that. --Bduke (talk) 07:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can see, most issues are settled (Icsunonove: [7]; jergen: [8]).

Open is the question how to mark an editor-provided translation as well as the question how to adress the Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy (Associazione Guide e Scouts Cattolici Italiani). For the latter I requested a move (see Talk:Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy#Requested move). --jergen (talk) 08:50, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I have had a look at this as far as I can in the time I have had available so far. It seems that perhaps some issues are settled. As jergen says, there is the issue od the change of name of Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy (Associazione Guide e Scouts Cattolici Italiani). I had noticed that earlier and I will go over to that talk page and comment there. There then seems to be a lot of rather confused edit changes that should be easy to resolve. For example links to coeducation should point to the actual name of the article Mixed-sex education, not to the redirect. This should be nothing to edit war over. So, are there other issues? Would both of you please comment below about anything you still think needs to be resolved:-

Icsunonove.

jergen

• As far as I'm concerned, the only open question is the naming/linking to the AGESCI article. Up until now, nobody except Bduke did comment.
• I will not fix any other redirecting links (like the above mentioned "coeducational" to "mixed-sex education") since fixing links to redirects is not encouraged per WP:RDR#NOTBROKEN. --jergen (talk) 11:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Then we might see whether there is anything more to do. --Bduke (talk) 10:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

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