Talk:Serapis

Requested move

Serapis (mythology) → Serapis:

• "Serapis" overwhelmingly refers to the Egyptian god. The Babylonian god is rather rare, and by the way also qualifies as "mythology", making the existing name of the Egyptian god's article improper.

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support This will of course require an admin --Lox (t,c) 15:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support PHG 07:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

• Commment Serapis currently redirects to Serapis (disambiguation) which currently links to Serapis instead of Serapis (mythology). I have fixed this, but if the page is moved, it will have to be changed again. --Lox (t,c) 15:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Moved. —Nightstallion (?) 13:50, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Serapis-worshippers called Christians

I deleted the article's quotation from the Augustan History (Firmus et al. 8). This was readded by User:PHG, so I'd better explain why I thought the article needed editing. Below, I quote part of the letter and its context in the History, from the translation at LacusCurtius:

For the Egyptians, as you know well enough, are puffed up, madmen, boastful, doers of injury, and, in fact, liars and without restraint, always craving something new, en [sic] in their popular songs, writers of verse, makers of epigrams, astrologers, soothsayers, quacksalvers. Among them, indeed, are Christians and Samaritans and those who are always ill-pleased by the present, though enjoying unbounded liberty. But, lest any Egyptian be angry with me, thinking that what I have set forth in writing is solely my own, I will cite one of Hadrian's letters, taken from the works of his freedman Phlegon, which fully reveals the character of the Egyptians.

From Hadrian Augustus to Servianus the consul, greeting. The land of Egypt, the praises of which you have been recounting to me, my dear Servianus, I have found to be wholly light-minded, unstable, and blown about by every breath of rumour. There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis. There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer. Even the Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is forced by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Christ. [The letter continues on to non-religious matters.]

It seems fairly clear to me that the letter's claim is that the Egyptians were involved in practices inconsistent with the religions they claimed; "Serapis-worshippers" worshipping Christ, "bishops of Christ" worshipping Serapis, and "Jews", "Samaritans" and "Christians" involved in astrology, etc. Note that the author of the History is using the letter as evidence for his claims about the character of Egyptians. However, the article has been citing the letter in connection with the following statement: "Followers of Serapis were called Christians as demonstrated in a letter from Emperor Hadrian to Servianus, 134. (Quoted by Giles, ii p86)" I interpreted this as meaning that worship of Serapis was sufficient for someone to be called a "Christian" (rather than merely that some people called themselves Christians and also worshipped Serapis).

Further problems with this statement were (a) that it assumed the authenticity of the letter's ascription to Hadrian, although the Historia Augusta is regarded as containing many forged sources (see its entry); and (b) that it contained an incomplete citation. I've left the quotation in the article this time, citing an online translation for it, but I've edited the introductory sentence, as it seems to me that this was problematic. My apologies if deleting the whole thing was excessive. EALacey 15:06, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the great background information! Regards PHG 21:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

It should be mentioned that Drews in his 1912 "The witnesses to the historicity of Jesus" gives a different rendition of the passage:

Those who worship Serapis are the Chrestians, and those who call themselves priests of Chrestus are devoted to Serapis. There is not a high-priest of the Jews, a Samaritan, or a priest of Chrestus who is not a mathematician, soothsayer, or quack. Even the patriarch, when he goes to Egypt, is compelled by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Chrestus. They are a turbulent, inflated, lawless body of men. They have only one God, who is worshipped by the Chrestians, the Jews, and all the peoples of Egypt. (pg 52)

Given the tweaking we have seen of references to "Chrestians" magically becoming references to "Christians" even though there is possible evidence the "Chrestians" movement dates from the 1st century BCE it does indicate there may have been a pagan group that was called "Chrestian" as late as the 2nd century CE.

Also it needs to be said that the reference seems to be coming from the Tour Egypt website:

'Egypt, which you commended to me, my dearest Servianus, I have found to be wholly fickle and inconsistent, and continually wafted about by every breath of fame. The worshipers of Serapis (here) are called Christians, and those who are devoted to the god Serapis (I find), call themselves Bishops of Christ.' Hadrian to Servianus, 134A.D. (Quoted by Giles, ii p86)

In fact, it appears that some followers of Serapis were eventually expelled from Rome when, in 19 AD, Tiberius also expelled the Jews.

Nevertheless, how great confusion between Serapis and Christ could have existed is really somewhat questionable. In 68 AD, a mob of pagans is said to have formed at the Serapis Temple in Alexandria, who then descended on the Christians who were celebrating Easter at Baucalis. There, they sized St. Mark, dragging him through the streets, before throwing him in prison. Clearly those worshippers of Serapis and Christ were aware of each other and the differences within their religions, though perhaps at a later date, some amongst the worshippers of either may have chosen to cover all of their options.

On the other hand, some have pointed out that Chrestus (Christus) was another name for the Egyptian god, Serapis. Chrestus may be translated as "Messiah", though the term need not apply to any specific Messiah, such as Jesus. It therefore could have simply been applied to "Lord Serapis", so that in fact, there was never any connection at all between the early Christians and the worshippers of Serapis.

Now how reliable that all is depends on the source material.--2606:A000:131D:45A7:159F:E1C1:20B:E816 (talk) 13:36, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

The Egyptians did not worship Serapis, the Greeks did. The Greeks invaded sacred land and "forced" the ancient Egyptians to build a bust of Ptolemy for and it was called Serapis and yes the Christians worship it. Not the ancient Egyptians. Please if you're going to copy ancient sacred history, can we at least respect the ancestors. TwaNation (talk) 05:51, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Gallery Image

Hello. I am trying to get a photo I uploaded on Wiki Commons to appear in the Serapis Gallery section of this article, but it doesn't seem to show up for me. Can anyone help? The image is located HERE. Artemisboy (talk) 17:23, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Etymology Disputed

I agree that the article presents the accepted Etymology for Serapis. And that the earliest accepted mention is with the death of Alexander in 323BC.

That being said, Homer and Hesiod mention his mythological wife, Io, several hundred years prior. And the Serapeum of Saqarra was built in the 18th dynasty, 1000 years prior, dated to Amenhotep III. So he appears to be a lost god or pharoah from 18th dynasty Egypt.

Not accepted yet, Serapis can be identified as Ahmose Sipair. Sipair is a close, but false reading of the name; close enough that you can see that there is no Apis/Hapi in the name, if this is correct, which it is.

The problem with the rendering of this name, Sipair, is in the goose glyph, g39. This is typically an "s", see Siptah, or coptic "Smoune"(goose). It is not always an "s", see Geb (formerly Seb, via Budge); this k/g render derives from coptic "qoshe"(goose). Sipair, however, is a g39, followed by z1(stroke - r determinitive[coptic - "roht"(stroke)). In this particular spelling, coptic "r - ro"(goose) is used for g39, instead of the typical "s - smoune". 75.31.164.210 (talk) 18:49, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Additionally, there is a 25th dynasty reference (300 years earlier):

"On a monument of the 19th Dynasty, Apis is said to be "the renewed life of Ptah," and in an inscription of the 25th Dynasty he is called the "second Ptah." In the same text we have a mention of the "temple of Asar-Hapi (Osirapis)," and here it is clear that his identity had been merged with that of Osiris." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.195.199.25 (talk) 14:52, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Tacitus

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Tacitus/Histories/4D*.html

"A temple, befitting the size of the city, was erected in the quarter called Rhacotis; there had previously been on that spot an ancient shrine dedicated to Serapis and Isis. Such is the most popular account of the origin and arrival of the god. Yet I am not unaware that there are some who maintain that the god was brought from Seleucia in Syria in the reign of Ptolemy III;​10 still others claim that the same Ptolemy introduced the god, but that the place from which he came was Memphis, once a famous city and the bulwark of ancient Egypt. Many regard the god himself as identical with Aesculapius, because he cures the sick; some as Osiris, the oldest god among these peoples; still more identify him with Jupiter as the supreme lord of all things; the majority, however, arguing from the attributes of the god that are seen on his statueº or from their own conjectures, hold him to be Father Dis.11" 150.195.199.25 (talk) 15:52, 12 December 2023 (UTC)