Talk:Territorial evolution of Germany

Reversion of "German language area" map

My conception of this article is that it is only about changes in the territory actually formally annexed or ceded by Germany. Thus, by this defintion, we would not include any part of France or Russia that was occupied but not formally annexed. Similarly, a map which shows "German language area" would appear to be about something other than "official borders of Germany". This is why I removed it from this article.

I think the map could be of use in an article which explained the motivation behind the territorial claims of German nationalists, especially the Nazis. It could also be of use in History of German settlement in Eastern Europe. I just don't think it is appropriate to the scope of this article.

--Richard 01:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

cant see any reason why to fullfill Godwin's Law ... Aborvegyro 08:48, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

German settlers were called into Eastern countries as early as the 12th century. Problems mainly arose after the rise of nationalism in the 19th Century, long before Hitler. After World War 1 the newly-founded national states Poland and Czechoslovakia forced the dominance of their nationals. The German minority hoped for self-determination, which they were not granted.--92.230.234.147 (talk) 20:25, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Schleswig-Holstein Question

Isn't this another topic here?--Kresspahl 15:01, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

No. The scope of this article starts in 1871 with the creation of Germany after the Franco-Prussian war. Thus, the Schleswig-Holstein question belongs in the article on Prussia. --Richard 16:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleswig_Plebiscites were in 1920.--Kresspahl 18:08, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

copy and paste

Territorial changes of Germany

Territorial situation in the 14th. century

Until 1648 Germany (which was part oft the Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation) lost enormous amounts of territory, including German-speaking territories such as Switzerland

. (Nota: The Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation - which is larger than Deutschland - on its part lost too; it lost German and romanic speaking territories as well.)

Thanks for your message on my Talk Page. As it turns out, I had just reverted your edits and was coming to your Talk Page to leave a more detailed explanation. The envisioned scope of the Territorial changes of Germany is to discuss changes to Germany after the formation of Germany as a country (Reich/Empire) in 1871. Prior to that, Germany did not exist as a sovereign state and so it makes no sense to discuss "territorial changes of Germany".

Your edits might be more relevant to a discussion of the Holy Roman Empire.

--Richard 08:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Nope. Germany (existed) long before the Deutsches Reich was founded. The lemma doesn't say the article is only bout the Deutsches Reich. The Holy Roman Empire comprised Germany, Bohemia, parts of Italy and so on. And Germany lost territories from approx 1130 to 1806. Regards. Aborvegyro 08:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC) postscriptum: I'll transfer this to the discussion page.

/copy and paste

conclusion: Germany lost territory long before 1871.(Of course the territorial loses could be relevant for the article on [Holy Roman Empire]] too.) Regards Aborvegyro 08:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Please read the article Germany. There is a history of the "German nation" prior to 1871 but Germany came into being as a nation-state in 1871. If you disagree, please follow the Wikipedia dispute resolution process.

--Richard 08:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I know the article Germany pretty well. But I can't see any reason why not to mention the medieval losses (from 1130 to 1806) of Germany in this more precise lemma. Would you please be kind enough to explain? Aborvegyro 08:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The explanation is simple... there is at least a partial consensus among editors that "Germany" refers to the nation state which was formed in 1871, divided in 1945 and reunited in 1990. That's what the Germany article says. This issue was also brought up in discussions about the title of the Former eastern territories of Germany article. There are many names that refer to Germany or parts of Germany prior to 1871...Prussia, German Federation, Holy Roman Empire. It all depends on what time period you are referring to. However, there is no time prior to 1871 when there was a sovereign state called "Germany".

If you insist, we can re-open the question and bring in other opinions to settle the issue. I leave the ball in your court.

--Richard 08:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Nope, not true. The noun Deutschland = Germany is not bordered to Deutsches Reich, Bundesrepublik Deutschland and so on. Espacially in regard to the time before 1806 that's simply wrong. But don't worry. I won't pick a ball to play wiki-bureaucracy-games. If you insist, use a wrong definition to write a wrongly bordered article. It's not that important. Regards. Aborvegyro 08:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC) (I won't even revert it any more)

I like to hold myself to two reverts and I've made those already so I won't revert your edits again. I have asked for opinions from other editors at Talk:Germany and Talk:History of Germany. Let's see what other people think. I will abide by consensus.

--Richard 09:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I strongly advise to everybody to kindly read the chapter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany#Holy_Roman_Empire_.28843.E2.80.931806.29 in the article Deutschland; this will make clear the noun is used in the way I described it. I'm interested in what other people think too; nevertheless I have to remark that facts are not an affair of opinions. Regards Aborvegyro 10:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you check out the actual article on the Holy Roman Empire? here, I will quote the opening of it, adding emphasis where needed:

The Holy Roman Empire was a supranational state, a conglomeration of mainly Germanic and Italian lands, consisting of kingdoms, principalities, duchies, counties, other lordships, and republics (Free Cities of the Empire) in Central Europe during the Middle Ages and the early modern period. It was a socio-political construct of the papacy and German dynasties brought into existence in the hopes of re-creating the Western Roman Empire equal to the Eastern Roman Empire, also known as the Byzantine Empire. Throughout most of its existence, though, it was a weak confederacy

To sum up, the Holy Roman Empire was a precursor to Deutschland, but it was not Deutschland

--Jadger 11:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Wrong: The Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation (Holy Roman Empire) was a precursor to Deutsches Reich, the Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation, the Deutscher Bund, the Deutsches Reich, the Bundesrepublik Deutschland as well as the Deutsche Demokratische Republik have all been Deutschland. Aborvegyro 12:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

(By the way: firstly: wikipedia is not a source, secondly: Throughout its existence the United States of America have been a confederacy. And there have been territorial changes too. I can't see any relevance if a state is a confederacy or not.)

The concept of the German nation as we interpret and use it today is based on the modern conception of nationalism, national identity and national territory, concepts that did not exist at the times of the Holy Roman Empire, so that it doesn't make any sense to interpret it in these terms. It was neither a national nor a supranational state because nations in their contemporary definition did not exist. And the discussion here also omits that the Holy Roman Empire was a precursor to both Germany and Austria, demonstrating that Germany and the Holy Roman Empire are not identical. Jonas78 19:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The 'situation in the 14th century map is very nice. Do you have a copy showing the whole of europe at that time in that exact style? I would like to see a series of maps of Germany, in relation to Europe, from the 14th century until present time. That would give a common reference point and enable a better view of the change in territory.

Thanks! --JamesR1701E 06:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. PeterSymonds (talk) 00:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

Hi. Anyone else feel that this article's current name, Territorial changes of Germany, is slightly awkward? Something like "Changes in German territory" or "Changes in the extent of German territory" comes to mind. Sardanaphalus (talk) 11:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

• Similarly, there's the article Territorial changes of Germany after World War II. Following the above, that would become "Changes in German territory after World War II", or "Chnages in the extent of German territory after World War II", or... Sardanaphalus (talk) 12:03, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
• Also Territorial changes of Poland ("Changes in Polish territory", "Changes in the extent of Polish territory", etc). Sardanaphalus (talk) 12:12, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Oppose - The current titles Territorial changes of xxx are more neutral and refer to the boundaries of the nation-state not the physical land itself. It's not worth getting into a flame war over what piece of land "belongs" to whom at what point in time. Ajh1492 (talk) 13:19, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

• Except that I read "of" here as having exactly that sense of 'belonging'. Does anyone else? Meanwhile, "Territorial changes of Germany/Poland/etc" remains awkward English. Sardanaphalus (talk) 17:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
• Just thought of another possible name format: "Changes in German/Polish territorial boundaries"..? Sardanaphalus (talk) 19:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

• Support, per nom, 'Changes in German territory' (which I see is already in the infobox) and also 'Changes in German territory after World War II'. Xn4 (talk) 11:50, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
  • For the record, I think I amended the phrasing in the infobox before following the link here to make the current proposal. If noone else adds an opinion here and the discussion ends as "no consensus", I might try WP:BRD and see what happens. Sardanaphalus (talk) 12:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Image copyright problem with Image:Munich agreement.jpg

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Belgium

Losheim is redirected to Losheim Am See in Saarland. There is no article for Losheim in Belgium. Tiddy (talk) 06:02, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Animated Map: History of the German State since 1867

Overall, the animated map is quite good in how it presents the border changes of the German state. However, after 1945 the diagram encounters numerous errors, which appear to steam from a theoretical interpretations of history rather than facts, and are serious enough to warrant the removal of the illustration until they can be fixed — the problems include:

• After 1945, the map still referees to the dismantled country as "German Empire", however after being occupied by the Allies, the country effectively ceased to exits, thus the occupation zones should be shown since out of them East and West Germany were re-created.
• Also, the map shows Poland's Recovered Territories and Kaliningrad Oblast as part of Germany until 1990, this is a highly controversial and a fringe point of view, as every country in the world including the UN and East Germany recognized the Oder–Neisse line.

In summary, the article is called Territorial evolution of Germany, hence it should not present political claims made by some in the the West German government, but the real changes in the borders of Germany. If that's the case, on the map you can just as easily dispute the changes after the Treaty of Versailles, since the German government in the 1920's and 30's refused to accept the legitimacy of those border changes — claiming that they were agreed to under duress. Also, Germany illegally took over the rest of Czechoslovakia, even though it was only given the Sudetenland, and the German administrative division of Poland was never accepted by any one… so if we want to base the map on theoretical claim then it's wrong from that perspective as well. In short, the map should not present the theoretical border of Germany, but the actual borders. --E-960 (talk) 16:14, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Again, removed this map after it was re-added—the map was showing theoretical 'territorial claims' made by some political groups in West Germany, not actual borders, which were recognized by the UN.--E-960 (talk) 22:51, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Lebensraum

Shouldn't this word appear in the article somewhere? I'm no expert, but I thought Hitler said that's what Germany needed, especially with the Sudetensland. deisenbe (talk) 12:51, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Harms Map German Reich 1942.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:37, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

When did Germany start?

I want to know 144.138.49.51 (talk) 12:24, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

The article appears to be a stub by truncating the ancient and medieval history of the German territory. Gim709 (talk) 13:19, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Clearly. 14.162.172.11 (talk) 10:00, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

"Territorial changes of germany" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Territorial changes of germany has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 13 § Territorial changes of germany until a consensus is reached. Eurohunter (talk) 17:50, 13 May 2023 (UTC)