Talk:The Quarrymen

untitled

Simply put, how is this line of any accuracy?

"In 1997 the four surviving original members of the Quarrymen reunited to perform at the 40th anniversary celebrations of the garden fete performance at which Lennon and McCartney met for the first time. Since 1998, they have performed in many countries throughout the world, releasing four albums. Three original members still perform as the Quarrymen."

When Lennon and McCartney would obviously meet well before 1997, as indicated by the previous descript before it?

Also for what its worth as an outsider, I think the Quarrymen should retain a distinct article from The Beatles, as it is clearly a different band with 6 members, which is also stated directly during McCartneys 2019-2020 tour, and only half of which remained for the transition to the Beatles afterward.

Is it really McCartney?

The top-right image has the caption: "The Quarrymen performing in Rosebery Street, Liverpool on 22 June 1957[1] (Left to right: Hanton, Griffiths, Lennon, Garry, Shotton, and Davis) with Paul McCartney watching (right)"

Can anyone give a citation that this is McCartney on the right of the image? It seems very unlikely as 1. he didn't meet Lennon until 3 weeks later, 2. he doesn't wear glasses, 3. McCartney's hair at the time was back at the sides and falling down at the front, this guy is more forward at the sides and up at the front. 4. he looks older than Lennon in the pic.5. he's hanging out with a load of suits.

OK I have taken out the reference to McCartney in the picture. If someone has historical evidence of it being him (not just looking similar) then they can put it back in, with a citation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.253.50.73 (talk) 00:21, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Useful or not?

Is this article useful ?

I think it is. Why wouldn't it be? That said, wasn't it "Quarrymen", one word? --Camembert

Nearly all the text is the article The Beatles

That's true, but I think it's useful to have separate articles - the two things are not the same, and most members of the Quarrymen were never in the Beatles. I'm sure there's plenty more that can be said about the Quarrymen than is here now, and most of it wouldn't be appropriate for the Beatles article. --Camembert

Almost two years have gone by since the last comment here, and by now Wikipedia has grown so much that there is no doubt I guess that The Quarrymen deserve their own article. I agree with everyone, including User:68.214.177.119, who said only two days ago I think that it is The Quarrymen rather than The Quarry Men, so I have moved the page (again).

P S What about Quarry Men and Quarrymen (without the article)? <KF> 11:48, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

Personally, I am of the belief that it is Quarry Men (two words). I have Anthology 1 here in front of me, and it uses the Quarry Men notation. Likewise, our History of the Beatles article says Quarry Men. This book says Quarry Men. Our German article on the band says Quarry Men. I'm fairly certain it's a two-word thing. - Vague | Rant 08:37, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

Well, at least someone sees reason. Elfred 18:10, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

And for what it's worth, so does this album cover. - Vague | Rant 06:28, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)

Just to clarify that it isn't an actual "Beatle" Quarry Men/Quarrymen CD. ;)

OH! What does that say? It says "The Quarry Men," that's right. Not Quarrymen. YOU IDIOTS, IT'S NOT FRICKIN' QUARRYMEN! Elfred 15:39, 15 April 2007 (UTC)!

What we need to realize is that the two (The Quarrymen or The Quarry Men) cannot be decided on. John Lennon himself writes 'The Quarrymen' so, as I've no choice but to believe it all falls on personal preference, I agree with John and call them 'The Quarrymen'. The majority of people (bootleggers) tend to go with 'The Quarrymen' when labelling their albums (see also both this album and this book on Amazon.com.) We could probably offer this on the main page: that the two names exist and are accepted. Riv @ 00:10 hours on Feb 3, 2005

Quarrymen or Quarry Men

Although in many ways the two names appear to be interchangeable there does seem to be an underlying difference. The original lineup had the two-word name on their drum head and on their business cards. It seems that the line in the school song used the one-word form and that was the style favoured by John Lennon. For the purposes of this article I found it convenient to use the two-word form for the original band and the one-word form for the second incarnation (the proto-Beatles) that was formed for the Casbah residency. This isn't entirely consistent because the 1990s reunion band was styled "John Lennon's Quarrymen". --Theo 12:11, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Percy Phillips demo (1958)

I am not convinced that the demo was recorded on a 78 rpm disc? I have a note that the recording engineer "later wiped the tape", which suggests that it was tape recorded. --Theo (Talk) 09:13, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The fate of the tape

"The tape sold to EMI for £78,500, making it the most expensive recording ever sold at auction, but the recording quality was too poor to issue and the the tape is now believed to be lost."

I have to disagree with the latter comment - I've never heard this rumour before, and surely if something is in the hands of EMI, it's not going to be lost, especially considering that they only bought it ten years ago? NoNameR

I agree. I have researched this further and amended the article accordingly. —Theo (Talk) 12:41, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

The Nurk Twins

I have seen several items on the web saying that John and Paul used to busk under the name of The Nurk Twins as well as The Quarry Men. Any one know about this? "Before the Beatles, there was The Everly Brothers," (Chet)Atkins said in his stage introduction. He wasn't overstating the point: Prior to forming The Beatles, John Lennon and Paul McCartney played Everlys songs in a street-busking duo known as The Nurk Twins." Said in discussing the influence the Everly Bros. had on the Beatles tunes. http://weeklywire.com/ww/05-11-98/nash_music-lede.html and http://www.beatles.com/hub/article.php?page=upto63&menuItem=the%20beatles I know it has always been fashionable to busk in Engaland. Did the lads busk or not?

Read the article, and you will now find that it was a weekend gig at a pub.--212.241.64.236 (talk) 18:54, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Tree

I just added a rock family tree. Please feel free to move it to its own page, a la The Beatles line-ups, if there's some determination that it shouldn't be here in this article due to size, or whatever else. Thanks. --luckymustard 11:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

If we accept that the reformed "Quarrymen" of the 90s are a legitimate enyclopedic topic - and I guess they are - shouldn't the family tree include those lineups? Perhaps the Beatles should be a fork? --kingboyk 14:31, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

In-line Citations

I have just added the first three, and Spitz's and Miles' books as references. It would be nice to see more... --andreasegde 16:18, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

John Lowe's middle name

Is it Charles or Duff? The Quarry Men website says it's Duff. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.120.110.23 (talk) 02:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC).

It's John Duff Lowe.--andreasegde (talk) 17:35, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

It is Quarry Men...

It actually is Quarry Men, read the biography of The Beatles by Bob Spitz. I believe he has done more research than any of you. It says clearly that it is the Quarry Men.

No it's "The Quarrymen", not only did my father go to school with Colin Hanton,[1] but it states so quite clearly on their web site. The main reason for this confusion comes from the fact that it was not possible to write the name across the bass drum in letters big enough to be seen, so the name had to be "split up" and Bob Spitz didn't help Hanton and the others to carry their gear around. Hope this helps. Vera, Chuck & Dave 16:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Quarry_Men_-_2_words,_not_1.jpg Juliekadams (talk) 15:31, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Vera. Spitz got a lot of things right, but not everything.--andreasegde (talk) 14:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The spelling The Quarry Men is defitely not an ERROR, as initially stated in the article. They even used that spelling on their bass drum!?. The reference to the "poster" that JL designed could be wrong. It is actually a small contact card saying "Rock'n'Roll, Skiffle: The Quarry Men - Open for Engagements - Manager Gateacre 1715"contact card scanvideo (see at 2:44). The credits on the anthology are also The Quarry Men.(E-Kartoffel (talk) 05:51, 19 March 2011 (UTC))

Did you read Vera, Chuck & Dave's comments above?--andreasegde (talk) 12:32, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and I have also found that contact card, that seems to have been miscredited in the book by Bob Spitz. I do not own that book, so I can't check what is actually written there. All I want to say is that the spelling Quarry Men is not incorrect. Both spellings have been used. there is no point in marking that spelling as incorrect. (E-Kartoffel (talk) 14:48, 19 March 2011 (UTC))

OK, I'll change it to "The Quarrymen (also written as "The Quarry Men")"..... which I have just done --andreasegde (talk) 19:51, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

GA

I have started work on this.--andreasegde (talk) 21:37, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I have upgraded it to B-class.--andreasegde (talk) 13:09, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I realise that I'm just throwing stuff in, but it will be cleaned, refined, and polished.--andreasegde (talk) 23:15, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

It is now up for a GA review.--andreasegde (talk) 17:13, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:The Quarrymen/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

• "Lennon's mother, Julia Lennon, taught Lennon and Eric Griffiths how to tune their guitars the same way as a banjo, taught them simple chords, and songs." - it's not clear at this point what relevance this has to the rest of the lead/article.

Beacuse it shows how important Julia Lennon was to Lennon. She has been portrayed as not caring about Lennon, and it corrects a common untruth.--andreasegde (talk) 18:47, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• "Shotton, even though Shotton could not play any instrument.[6][8][9] Shotton elected to play the washboard, as it was the easiest instrument to learn, so Shotton's mother" - eek, repetition. Try and ease up on it a bit.

OK; "his mother".--andreasegde (talk) 18:47, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• "and travelled to work on the same bus as Griffiths used to get to school." - could remove the "as" for some smoother prose.

Can't do that, because it's English Grammar. You can not write, "I don't have the same car you", because one should say, "I do not have the same car as you have". Sorry.--andreasegde (talk) 18:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• "Rehearsals were moved from the cold air-raid shelter to Hanton's or Griffiths' house—as his father had died in WWII, and his mother worked all day" - who's? Hanton's or Griffiths' mother/father?

You got me there, because I repeated Shottons's name, and you said it was repetition (quite right) but can I repeat Griffiths' name, or say, "the latter", which seems a bit convoluted? I will do something.--andreasegde (talk) 19:00, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• "During this time that Lennon heard" --> "It was during this time that Lennon heard..."?

Changed to,"During this time Lennon heard".--andreasegde (talk) 19:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• "The Quarrymen at played at" - rmv the first at?

Yes, and rightly so; it has been corrected.--andreasegde (talk) 19:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• "McCartney returned from holiday and started rehearsing with The Quarrymen, playing songs like, "Bye Bye Love" (The Everly Brothers) and "All Shook Up", which Lennon and the band had been trying to learn, without success.[43] After returning from his summer holidays, McCartney made his debut at a Conservative Club social: The New Clubmoor Hall, Back Broadway, Norris Green, Liverpool, on Friday, 18 October 1957" - the first sentence also refers to him returning from summer holidays, right? If so it's a bit confusing in that that info is repeated.

Totally spot-on. It will be changed to, "McCartney made his debut",--andreasegde (talk) 19:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• "On Thursday, 7 November, Charlie McBain booked" - wlink date
  • "and at The Cavern on 24 January."
  • "band perform on 6 February"
  • "on 1 January, at a Speke Bus Depot"
  • "and on 24 January, at a party at Woolton Village Club"
  • "the weekend of Saturday 5th July and Sunday 6th July"

I'm not sure about this, because I always thought that if it was a date with a year, it should be linked, but not dates alone. If I'm wrong, I will change it at once.--andreasegde (talk) 19:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Months and days yes, years not always. It's per MOS:SYL. —Giggy 00:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Done.--andreasegde (talk) 04:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

• "One After 909" (on Let It Be)" - should Let It Be have italics/quotation marks?

Yes, and it should linked - bugger... :))--andreasegde (talk) 19:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• Ref 78 has awkward formatting - "Fletcher, Tim (6 April 2002). Johhny and the Moondogs. Fletcher, Tim." - repetition of name.

Ahhh, it was reference 80, not 78. I took out the repeated name.--andreasegde (talk) 19:47, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• "Sutcliffe and fellow art college student, Bill Harry, were on the Student Union committee" - remove the commas.

This is strange, because if "Lennon's mother, Julia Lennon", was without commas it would seem strange, no?--andreasegde (talk) 19:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• "£78,500 ($122,000)" - I presume US dollars, but you can say so ($)

Done. --andreasegde (talk) 19:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• "inclusion on the Beatles Anthology project" - should that have italics?

Done. --andreasegde (talk) 19:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Done offline, for the record. Please leave me a note when done - cheers, —Giggy 09:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Done.--andreasegde (talk) 19:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Uhh, you little scamp you! You're Dihydrogen monoxide (now Giggy, of course). If I had known that I would welcomed you with open arms! Hope you're doing well. --andreasegde (talk) 05:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh no, found out! :) —Giggy 05:21, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I thank thee kindly Giggy... (I'll keep it a secret just between us :)--andreasegde (talk) 10:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Now passed! —Giggy 04:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The Dissenters

Should the The Dissenters be added to the lead, or just merged? 70.53.187.114 (talk) 21:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I have added it to "Sutcliffe", as it was only a booze-up idea, but worth mentioning in the lead.--andreasegde (talk) 20:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Early years: mention band's original name

From section "Early years:

Two weeks later they heard that another skiffle band already had the same name,

This really threw me. Which name? I'm guessing the Blackjacks from 4 paragraphs up in the lede? This is way to far back for the reference here. If this is the case, the sentence should be changed to something more like "The band was originally named the Blackjacks, but two weeks later..."

Thanks. --Speight (talk) 01:04, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

"Two weeks later they heard that another skiffle band was already called The Blackjacks, so during a "mini-brainstorming" at Mendips, Shotton laughingly suggested naming themselves The Quarrymen after a line in their school's song: "Quarrymen, old before our birth / Straining each muscle and sinew", as they had never done much work at school.[12]" OK?--andreasegde (talk) 21:32, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

The Blackjacks

It's common knowledge that The Beatles evolved from a band Lennon founded called the Quarrymen which is the subject of this article. This article talks about another band name of The Blackjacks of which there is no supporting citation. It seems that stories about The Beatles' origin go back to The Quarrymen, not The Blackjacks. Can someone get more info? Steelbeard1 (talk)

Answer: "Two weeks later they heard that another skiffle band was already called The Blackjacks, so during a "mini-brainstorming" at Mendips, Shotton laughingly suggested naming themselves The Quarrymen after a line in their school's song: "Quarrymen, old before our birth / Straining each muscle and sinew", as they had never done much work at school.ref name="Spitzp51"> Spitz (2005) p51 (reference)--andreasegde (talk) 21:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I didn't realize there was discussion of this before making a change to the citation. In my copy of Spitz, the Blackjacks info quoted above is on page 52. I updated the citation, which triggered an update to a subsequent reference to p51. Hope I didn't step on any toes, or worse. — John Cardinal (talk) 00:07, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I have the hardback version (which is where the refs come from) and it cost me a fortune. This is the price I have to pay for living in a foreign country. :))--andreasegde (talk) 13:42, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

First names

User:TheHYPO has added first names even when a person's full name has already appeared previously in the article. I don't see any reason for this, and recommend that we follow the WP convention. — John Cardinal (talk) 13:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I can see User:TheHYPO's point, per the edit summary. I don't know what precedent there is but I can see the benefit. I would see this as analogous to judicious use of wikilinks for terms already linked earlier, where repeating the "definition" brings greater clarity as it does in this case. Maybe the convention can expand to encompass this, if it's not already covered and if there's consensus to do that. PL290 (talk) 13:35, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I think there is an argument the other way, and it relates to the reason for the WP convention. Adding first names clutters the text, and when only a single person has that surname, eliminating the first name simplifies things and makes it easier to keep track of who is who.

As it stands now, the article has "Pete Shotton" in para 2 (full and linked) and "Pete Shotton" in para 6. Inconsistently, the article has "Eric Griffiths" in para 1 (full and linked) and "Griffiths" in para 5. The distance (in paragraphs) is the same, but one is handled differently than the other.

I think we should return the article to match the style guide and someone in favor of changing it ought to make a proposal for why this article needs to be different. If that proposal is accepted, the article ought to be changed so that it is consistent for all members of the band. — John Cardinal (talk) 14:01, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I've now checked the guideline, which is WP:LASTNAME, and it doesn't currently make exception for this kind of thing. As you say, it may be best to return the article to its previous state until consensus is achieved in MoS for this approach. PL290 (talk) 19:25, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I've started this conversation on the MoS talk page. I haven't stated a strong opinion one way or the other but I can see both points of view. Interested parties are invited to comment there and take any eventual action here if applicable. PL290 (talk) 19:42, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Recent times

The article does not seem to have a section on the band in recent years. The infobox says they have been active since 1993 but there is no mention of it. McLerristarr (talk) 15:06, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Date of recording ?

It looks odd (or it's a pity) no precise date is mentioned for the recording of the only original 78rpm disc feat. That'll Be The Day b/w In Spite Of All The Danger. It should have happened by the end of 1957 or early in 1958, but it would be interesting to be more accurate... if possible ;-)

Before I get an answer to my email sent to the present band, would s'dy have some more clues or sources ?--Polofrfr (talk) 23:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC) --Polofrfr (talk) 00:10, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

12 July 1958. It is now in, but it was in Phillips' Sound Recording Services. "Thinking of Linking", I think.--andreasegde (talk) 13:44, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I've Lost My Little Girl

The article quotes Pete Shotton: "During 1958, McCartney played his first self-composed song, "I've Lost My Little Girl", to Lennon, who was shocked and impressed, according to Shotton's account.[56]"

This may be a "reliable source" but it's inaccurate. The Quarry Men had several originals in their set in late 1957, and Mark Lewisohn (Beatles Chronicle) lists "I Lost My Little Girl" as part of the group's repertoire for 1957 too. Either it's a typo or Shotton has his years wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.153.251.58 (talk) 17:51, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Well spotted, but...

1. Maybe McCartney had never played the song to Lennon before (it being a bit personal about his mum, after all).
2. Maybe Lennon thought McCartney's other original songs were not bad, but "I Lost My Little Girl" was a cracker?
3. Pete Shotton spelt one of his best friends' name as Nigel Whalley, when it should have been Nigel Walley.

Anyway... I have moved the sentence to the 1957 era, as McCartney joined then, but have added that the song was written in 1956.--andreasegde (talk) 18:27, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Beatles RfC

You are invited to participate in an RfC at Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/The Beatles on the issue of capitalising the definite article when mentioning the band's name in running prose. This long-standing dispute is the subject of an open mediation case and we are requesting your help with determining the current community consensus. For the mediators. ~ GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 00:55, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Skiffle vs Skiffle

I assume whoever wrote the line "In the mid-1950s, there was a revival in the UK of the musical form 'skiffle' that had originated in the USA and had been popular in the US in the 1920s, '30s and '40s" is either too young to remember the 50s or American. The music that the UK called skiffle bore slightly less than no resemblance whatsoever to the US music it lifted its name from (At the suggestion of Bill Colyer, brother of New Orleans-style jazzband leader Ken). Indeed, from reading his Wikipedia bio it seems likely that Lonnie Donegan had never even heard the term or knew what it referred to. Basically Brit skiffle was a bunch of people with musical instruments singing the first songs that came into their heads. Loudly. --Deke42 (talk) 19:01, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

How many survive and perform when?

The lead section now closes,

In 1997 the four surviving original members of the Quarrymen reunited to perform at the 40th anniversary celebrations of the garden fete performance at which Lennon and McCartney met for the first time. The band decided to continue playing, and since 1998 have performed in many countries throughout the world. Griffiths died in 2005, and Shotton retired due to ill-health. As of 2014, three original members are still actively performing as the Quarrymen.

At John Duff Lowe we say that he was not original, first performed 1958, but he performs today with three of the originals Davis, Garry, Hanton. If so then five were surviving of Griffiths and Shotton were not both original, or something. Lennon and the five I have named here are the six in our 1957-06-22 photo.

At Colin Hanton, five members not including Garry are named as a 1956 lineup (2nd paragraph), but Garry is called original later (4th par).

--P64 16:56 --P64 (talk) 17:04, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

The article is still inconsistent.

• Lead: In 1997 the four surviving original members of the Quarrymen reunited to perform at the 40th anniversary celebrations
• Formation and early performances: This initial line-up consisted of Lennon and Griffiths on guitars, Pete Shotton on washboard, and school friend Bill Smith on tea chest bass. [That's four including Lennon, so only three alive in 1997].
• Reformations: 1994 to present: The surviving members of the original line-up of the Quarrymen reunited in 1997 for the 40th anniversary of their performance at the 1957 Woolton village fete—which was the occasion of the first meeting of Lennon and McCartney. All five surviving original members, Pete Shotton, Rod Davis, Len Garry, Eric Griffiths and Colin Hanton, performed.

Adpete (talk) 23:58, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Strange, but true

"and went on to have an extremely successful recording career." - no shit.

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They exist in the present

Surely it should start, The Quarry Men ARE a band... rather than WERE a band...? They just played a gig in Hungary, three days ago.