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Re: Getting away with things

And a very happy New Year to you too. It's 12:30 here and I've just retired early from a party.... Alansplodge (talk) 00:32, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

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Census exclusion exclusion

I don't understand, but the contribution I spent half a pleasant hour researching and writing up has disappeared from the refdesk (a technical, not a spiteful, error, I am sure), so I copy it here to make sure it's somewhere you can see it: [1].

I would challenge the wording of the question. The censuses that I am aware of attempt to capture data on everyone in the country (in each town, in each household) on a given night. Citizenship may or may not be one of the data points; it's the actual physical presence that matters more. Thus, foreign tourists and visiting relatives are counted, because people ordinarily resident are also likely to be abroad (or in another town or household) on census night. Planning for roads and sewage depends on bodies, not the citizenship of those bodies; likewise, in many countries, planning for schools and health clinics. So, as a rule of thumb, a census will attempt to count every human being on census night, but over the months and years that follow, the statisticians may slice and dice the data in different ways to make different points. They have algorithms to try to approximate the numbers of e.g. illegal immigrants and homeless people and refuseniks.

That's nowadays. If you're looking historically, you could consider extreme examples such as the 1666 census of New France, which involved a door-to-door count of the French, skipping over all the indigenous people. The Canadian Encyclopedia has an article on aboriginal people and demography which explains some of the difficulties and overlapping categories that bedevil demographers. Our article on Aboriginal peoples in Canada states:

Approximately 40,115 individuals of Aboriginal heritage could not be counted during the 2006 census. This is due to the fact that certain Aboriginal reserves and communities in Canada did not participate in the 2006 census, since enumeration of those communities were not permitted. In 2006, 22 Native communities were not completely enumerated unlike in the year 2001, when 30 First Nation communities were not enumerated and during 1996 when 77 Native communities could not be completely enumerated. Hence, there were probably 1,212,905 individuals of Aboriginal ancestry (North American Indian, Metis, and Inuit) residing in Canada during the time when the 2006 census was conducted in Canada.

First Nations men and women could not, as a rule, vote until 1960, so you could say they weren't considered full citizens. (I'm unaware of the correct legal terminology for this.) See Timeline of changes in citizenship and rights. As for who got the status of "American", you might want to read "Racial Reorganization and the United States Census 1850-1930: Mulattoes, Half-Breeds, Mixed Parentage, Hindoos, and the Mexican Race" here. I hope this goes some way towards helping.BrainyBabe (talk) 00:14, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh and yes, Roma/Gypsies have been massively under-counted in some countries. The Open Society Foundations has a "Roma Census Success" story here. BrainyBabe(talk) 00:20, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

herds, various

BTW, thanks for asking. (I confess I was hoping someone would. :-) ) —Steve Summit (talk) 03:31, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

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Pope Pius XI chez Hugh Walpole

I dithered about adding his job title, and you're probably right. If you are not extremely careful I will tell you what Driberg actually wrote rather than the demure paraphrase in my prose. Merry new year, if it's not too late! Tim riley (talk) 20:57, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I would love to hear what his lordship wrote, Tim.

Never too late for good wishes: happy new year to you, too! -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:59, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I shall require your solemn assurance that you will allow my prissy paraphrase to stand untampered with in the article. The ipsissima verba would be more shocking to sensitive souls than I think desirable in a WP article. Tim riley (talk) 21:16, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Dug it out: "In Rome at the same time was the novelist Hugh Walpole, covering the papal ceremonies for the Hearst news-syndicate. He said: 'All one can hope for is a few fine phrases floating in a sea of clichés.' Whereas I had to return to London and my daily column for the weeks between the two events, Walpole was lucky enough to stay in Rome for both the funeral and the coronation. I found him a congenial companion and, since he was a quick worker, suggested that he should fill in the time by putting his impressions of Rome into a book. This he did; the book was called Roman Fountain. I do not think he had been in Rome before: the book, though probably not his best, sparkles with fresh observation. He lunched with me at Alfredo's, in a mood of gratified exaltation: that morning, he claimed, a handsome attendant at the Borghese gallery had insisted on pinning him against a wall and buggering him." Tim riley (talk) 21:28, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh, how shocking! Someone please hand me my smelling salts.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:31, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

This is a family show! Behave yourself! Tim riley (talk) 21:33, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Moi? I'm as pure as they come. My angelic virtue and naive innocence are hardly ever tarnished these days. (But one does have one's memories. Sigh ...) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:40, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Samuel Beckett quote

Good (and funny) comment in the Arts and Sciences thread. LOL — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobornot (talk • contribs) 00:05, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I rely on it almost daily. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:33, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Peter Cosgrove

If you ignore the archive housekeeping stuff, this edit may (or may not) be of interest. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:03, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

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nah

you gotta be joking, piers, human? nah you are too kind to the journos... people? nah... satusuro 01:52, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

My good mate Terry once said Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto, which lets me off the hook of having to decide whether any particular living entity is human or not. Mr A doesn't have anything to prove to me, but anyone who goes to bed with him (shudder) might be in for a few surprises.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:03, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Regarding...

...this,[2] I don't know of a source offhand, but it seems to me that religionists were saying the exact same thing at the time of the first millennium. Basically, "Don't concern yourself with earthly matters, because it will all be over soon." Oops. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:20, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Yep. As a famous person said quite recently, Plus ça change .... -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:37, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Ah, but I couldn't find the cedilla. μηδείς (talk) 00:39, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, yeah. Excuses, excuses ...  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:41, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

You could use a handy-dandy character string for some non-English letters, such as this one: áÁ éÉ íÍ óÓ úÚ ñÑ ¡¿ - àÀ çÇ èÈ - â êÊ îÎ ôÔ ûÛ - äÄ öÖ ß üÜ ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:08, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

In Edit mode, don't you guys have the pop-up menu, just below the text area and above the Edit summary, that lets you choose between: Insert, Wiki markup, Symbols, Latin, Greek, Cyrillic, Hebrew, Arabic, IPA (English), IPA, and Math and Logic? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:14, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

I can see that item, even using the old format. I keep that text string handy for use with other things as well as here. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:17, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Between the two of you I feel stuck between Cedilla and Circonflexe. μηδείς (talk) 01:45, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Cute pun. That reminds me, I recently bought a DVD of the remake of Rattigan's The Deep Blue Sea, and I must get around to watching it, just as soon as I can get my damn DVD player to work. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:51, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

I love Rattigan, one of the few playwrights (other than Ibsen, Shakespeare, Rostand, Shaw and Ayn Rand) I can enjoy in the reading rather than only the watching. Let me know if you enjoy the film. As for Bugs' suggestion, I used to use that method with gGkK back when my laptop had a missing G and K key. (I do know the drop down of course, was being facetious here, and lazy there.) Bugs, let me know it there's a way to save such a string with other than CTRL V in Windows 7 to paste with--let me know on my talk page so as not to keep Jack awake, unless you're afraid of being blocked for it. μηδείς (talk) 02:19, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

I actually keep that string as a folder name, and use the rename feature to extract the part(s) I need at any given time. Primitive, yes, but uncomplicated. A more direct way, for here anyway, would be to keep it as a line of text on your user page. However, the way I use it is exactly what you described - ctrl c and ctrl v - so I can't give you any new information. :( ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:04, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

I've never seen anything by Rattigan I didn't like. I remember catching about 5 minutes of the Vivien Leigh/Kenneth More TDBS a very long time ago, but that complete film has eluded me all this time. My absolute favourite No. 1 film of all time is Separate Tables. Not so much for David Niven (excellent though he is and fully deserving of his Best Actor Oscar), but more for Gladys Cooper, and especially for the interplay between Burt Lancaster, Rita Hayworth and Wendy Hiller (who won Best Supporting Actress). It gets more and more brilliant and heartstring-tugging every time I see it. (Yes, I do have a heart, and films like this serve to prove it, if nothing else can.) But most people I know, including old-school film buffs, have never even heard of this film. Tragic.

I don't block people for keeping me awake. I subject them to a far worse fate - I ignore them. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:50, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

The Vivien Leigh version is available at youtube, here. There are very few movies you can't find there. μηδείς (talk) 03:07, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:03, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

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ASking for your help

Hi JackofOz, It has been bothering me for a while that the Hungarian cake called Dobos torta wrongly appears as "Dobos torte" on wikipedia.

I am Hungarian and that is how I am absolutely certain that the word "torte" does not mean anything. "Torta" however means cake. As you are the only wikipedia editor I dare to contact, I would like to ask you in the name of all my fellow Hungarians to correct that please. Only if it does not require too much effort from your side of course.

Thank you, Ildiko Chikan

Wow. I just noticed that "torte" is a word in english :) I thought it was a typo. Please disregard my previous email and sorry for having a conversation with myself on your talk page. Have a nice day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.188.86.198 (talk) 14:54, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:31, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Birthdate on Linda Jaivin

Hi Jack. Editor Elbeejay appears to have used a User Name which represents the initials for L (B) Jaivin. She comments in an edit summary that it is an article about her. I have assumed this to be the case, and that she knows her own birthdate better than the source you are using. I would be interested to hear your thoughts. --Greenmaven (talk) 02:20, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi. I'm prepared to accept that Elbeejay is Linda Jaivin. But she must be prepared to accept that our protocols require a WP:Reliable source for details on WP:BLPs, and my personal opinion of Elbeejay's identity does not enter into it. The only source I've been able to find says 27 May. We'd need a proper source for any different date. WP:COI is another reason why we should give less weight to things that subjects post about themselves. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:54, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

How often can we expect to find a reliable source that reveals someone's DOB? Isn't this a case where a reliable source is only required when a piece of info can reasonably be challenged. You have conceded "Elbeejay is Linda Jaivin". I am saying - she is the most reliable source we will ever find. As you must surely agree, the vast majority of DOB's on WP have no supporting reference. --Greenmaven (talk) 04:33, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Er, no, I do not agree with that at all. And as I said, my personal opinion on whether Elbeejay is or is not Linda Jaivin has absolutely nothing to do with anything. I just said, for the record, that I'm prepared to accept she is - but basically, so what? It comes down to this: we have a reliable source for a certain date, and we have an editor who claims to be the subject who disagrees with that date. In such a conflict, the RS will always win. That's how Wikipedia works: we base all our articles on reliable secondary information published by reputable publishers. "Elbeejay", as such, has not published anything, to my knowledge. If she can point us to, or if you can find, another published source that supports her assertion, we can revisit the matter. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 04:42, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi there. I just left a comment in the wrong place (still getting used to the editing process!) but it's to say that it does feel slightly absurd to be arguing about my own birthday. I don't want to upload my passport for obvious reasons (fear of identity theft etc) and don't know how else to prove it - perhaps you could contact the births and deaths register in New London, Connecticut, where I was born (in the Lawrence and Memorial Hospital) on 27 March 1955. But if you can't do that, and don't believe I'm me (fair enough, I appreciate the stringency) then I'll just watch the mistake multiply through the cyberverse as journalists take Wikipedia for a reliable source and enjoy the fact that you've made me two months younger.Elbeejay (talk) 07:40, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Hello Elbeejay. I see that the real Linda Jaivin also says on her own site that her birthday is 27 March. I hope you appreciate that Linda Jaivin's word about Linda Jaivin's birthdate carries more weight than Wikipedia User:Elbeejay's word about Linda Jaivin's birthdate. We have only Elbeejay's word that she and Ms Jaivin are identical, and I'm sure you appreciate just how easy it is for anyone to claim to be someone they're not. That's why people's claims about themselves are generally considered not watertight, and why we require a reputable independent source to confirm the claims.

As for Wikipedia's users being mislead about Ms Jaivin (OK, about you), we can point to the external source we're basing the birthdate on and direct readers to take the matter up with that publication. That's because we do not make anything up here; we simply relay what actual reliable external sources have said on any given topic. As there seems to be, apart from your own website, only the one online source that shows your birthdate at all, and they've got it wrong, it looks like you need to be spreading the word about your personal details a little bit more than you've done to date. That's if you want people to know the actual truth about you. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:47, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

This discussion should have been conducted at Talk:Linda Jaivin. Notwithstanding WP:PRIMARY, shouldn't Jaivin's web site giving 27 March settle the matter for the time being? In the long run, I agree with Jack that the author should publicise her true DoB if she wants to counter the wrong information in the cited Bibliography of Australian Literature: F–J. e.g. why isn't it mentioned here? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:44, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Michael. I have no objections to changing the date based on the author's website. She is agreeing with our source as far as the year 1955 is concerned, and is picking up on an easily-made typo (May --> Mar). As she publishes the day 27 Mar on her own site, case closed as far as I'm concerned. I will copy this discussion to Talk:Linda Jaivin. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 17:11, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you everyone for the correction to my birthday. Much appreciated! And by the way, Michael, it's not usual practice for agents to list their authors' birthdays on their websites, so its absence there is nothing strange. But I love the way that this process works. Cheers to all. Linda Elbeejay (talk) 21:57, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

We love it too, which is why we're committed to defending it. Cheers back. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:57, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I keep wondering why there's such controversy over Linda Lavin's birthday. μηδείς (talk) 22:21, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

You really do need work on your eyes.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:57, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Alex Brooker

Here's another interesting one - just found it by chance. [3]. Note the editor's user name. --Greenmaven (talk) 04:46, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. Since he graduated from Uni in 2006, a birth year of 1982 would be more believable than 1986. But 1986 is not impossible, and again, we have to go by reliable sources, not by assertions by editors, whether they appear to be the subject or not. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 04:54, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

February 2014

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Chuckles

"...The misery and squalor of his childhood, for which he won a Pulitzer Prize." It's good to know that unhappy times are not suffered in vain. Span (talk) 18:45, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your misquotation. These things are the lifeblood of the well-lived life.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:58, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

thank you

Thank you for creating Category:1907 ballet premieres. — Robert Greer (talk) 16:21, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

My pleasure. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:34, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

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Berkeley

Just let me understand: Wikipedia has to add a title to his name that his own website doesn't? Where did "common name" go? There's a discussion on project composers. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:15, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Gerda. My principal objection was your claim that he was born as Baron Berkeley. He wasn't. He was plain Mr Berkeley until only 18 months ago, in 2013. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:41, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I should have looked ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:08, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

And if his mother was barren, he would never have been Baron ! StuRat (talk) 17:16, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Your perspicacity is a wonderful thing, Mr Rat.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:16, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

My Country

Jack, many thanks for linking to the Dorethea Mackellar poem on the Misc RefDesk. I've been half-heartedly trying to track it down for several years, but the only line that I thought I could remember was "I love a land", which of course, doesn't actually appear in the poem. On my one and only visit to Australia in 1988, despite all the wonderfulness of it, after three weeks I was actually yearning for some proper English drizzle. This winter though, we've had plenty of "flooding rains" here too, and while not actually under water, we're paddling around in plenty of mud. Three or four weeks without rain is called "a drought" in England, so we're all hoping for one of those. Best regards, Alansplodge (talk) 21:17, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Cheers to soggy England. Yes, we're very aware of the trying conditions you and the North Americans have been battling through this (northern) winter. It all just seems so extreme everywhere, doesn't it. Where has the balance gone? I'll gladly swap some of your rain for some of our long dry patch. That would be the win-win way, wouldn't you say, dear Mother Nature?

I remember being taught My Country, all 8 verses of it, in Grade 6 in primary school, and ever since it's been one of my most beloved poems. I'm forever quoting it (no, not the whole thing, silly; usually just "a land ... of droughts and flooding rains") in the company of friends. We were also taught Sir Henry Newbolt's Vitaï Lampada, as if it were similarly culturally relevant; well, that was early '60s Australia for you. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:38, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

You have a ten year head start on me. We learned Vitaï Lampada too, but as a curiosity from a bygone age. I heard My Country on the TV once and it struck a chord; I may try to learn some chunks by heart. I look forward to receiving some drought in the post. Floods by return. Alansplodge (talk) 02:07, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

You have a deal, sir. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:09, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

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Sorting protocol

How would you justify this change? Regards, Toccata quarta (talk) 07:19, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

And hello there to you too. I've taken the liberty of changing your header, as all questions are, well, questions, so that word tells us nothing about the nature of the enquiry.

Leading definite and indefinite articles are ignored for sorting purposes, no matter which language they may be in. Just looking at Category:Oratorios, we see that The Apostles (Elgar) appears under A for Apostles, not under T for The. Likewise for many other examples on that page, and all over Wikipedia, and throughout the world wherever multi-name titles are sorted. The way WP handles this is by specifying in the DEFAULTSORT template how the title is to be sorted within its categories. That is what it is for, since there is never any point in having a Defaultsort unless the sorting specification is somehow different from the article's title. Cheers. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:34, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Fwiw, I've always thought the name "Defaultsort" is a gross misnomer, unless my understanding of the word "default" is incorrect. The truth is that the default sorting key is the article's title. Specifying something different from that default is done by something called "Defaultsort"; shouldn't it be called anything other than "Default"? I know this confuses many people, since I've come across multitudes of Defaultsorts that are identical with their articles' titles. Such a waste of time and space.

Btw, see Wikipedia:Categorization#Sort keys. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:03, 28 February 2014 (UTC)