Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Derman tragedy

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Spartaz ^Humbug! 22:27, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Derman tragedy

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Apparent WP:V fail. I don't think I trust any of the sites listed as references, and a GSearch for "Derman tragedy" does not reveal anything else that looks reliable. ru:Дерманская трагедия exists, but the only online refs are to LiveJournal, which is surely not reliable. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 05:07, 12 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 05:07, 12 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 05:07, 12 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 05:07, 12 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I have no reason whatsoever to distrust the foreign-languages references presented; this is an entirely typical description of Einsatzgruppen type activities in the Ukraine. I would invite the OP to consider taking his problems with the sources, if he distrusts them, to WP:RSN before listing anything for deletion. Struck; neutral; comments withdrawn. Buckshot06 (talk) 02:57, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:As regards the reliability of the sources I would invite Ezhiki to make any comments he wishes, and to nominate another of our gold-standard Russian/Ukrainian language editors to do the same, whether you believe this article should be definitely deleted, or any other viewpoint. Also Noclador, Wreck Smurfy who have some experience in such topics, please make any comments on whether you believe the article should be definitely deleted, or any other viewpoint. I am aware of WP:CANVASS and I am attempting to word this "Comment" notice so that the invited editors may be free to make any comments they choose. Kind regards Buckshot06 (talk) 07:49, 12 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete lacks SIGCOV in multiple RS and so fails WP:GNG. Mztourist (talk) 05:21, 13 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. One of the external links is a Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty a long article in Ukrainian about the events. That's a reputable source. Looking at the wiki article and the Radio Liberty article it seems that the reason it's only included as an external link is that the Radio Liberty article is more nuanced and has much lower numbers of victims. Keep and rework with the article, ideally a Ukrainian editor will do this and use this short documentary about Derman in WWII and this oral history of Derman during WWII. noclador (talk) 16:00, 13 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete it really lacks independent and reliable sources. It looks and reads like Polish/Russian propaganda and has signs of original research. Wikipedia is not a tribune for political and historical battles. With all respect to everyone, sincerely --Synhuliak (talk) 18:41, 13 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep but heavily tag for better sourcing -- If true, this was a serious war crime committed by Ukrainians in Nazi pay (which would be notable). Inevitably such incidents are the subject of competing claims, but that does not mean they did not happen. The problem is with getting adequate sourcing, and knowing which are RS. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:17, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"If true" says it all, there is nothing to satisfy WP:V, so this page should be deleted.Mztourist (talk) 04:12, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: If it fails verification it cannot be kept. Relisting to better establish consensus behind this.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:04, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per precedent in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Massacre of Brzostowica Mała (2nd nomination), we need stronger sources to have a standalone article on an alleged massacre. (t · c) buidhe 09:20, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 15:19, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. I would say keep if WP:V can be met. However, we must be especially careful that this topic be verified, acknowledging the numerous Arbitration decisions around Eastern Europe in WWII. There are many strong emotions that rise in these topics. Without better insight into the sources, I agree Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Massacre of Brzostowica Mała (2nd nomination) provides good advice on how to evaluate these articles' WP:V. At this time, I do not see the necessary sourcing met. Zkidwiki (talk) 21:05, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete This is mainly unsourced, therefore failing WP:GNG and seems to mostly contain OR (it could have been lifted from somewhere also). So, it's a clear delete case in my book. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:30, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.