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Byzantine Empire

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Notified: Mass Message Send notifications, talk page notices 2020-11-21 2022-12-10

This 2001 FA which dates to Refreshing Brilliant Prose days was last reviewed at FAR more than 10 years ago, and its most significant contributors are no longer active. The talk page notifications from 2020-11-21 and 2022-12-10 barely scratch the surface; the article is riddled with maintenance tags and there are concerns about image licensing, uncited text, prose, MOS compliance, and a good chunk of the very large article has never been vetted in a review process, as it was added after the last review. I believe the problems here are too deep and wide to be addressed at FAR, and the article should be delisted and re-submitted to FAC if it improves, but maybe someone is up to the task. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I generally agree that FAR is an unlikely solution for this, unless someone seriously commits themselves to this daunting task. This has been one of the big impending FARs for many years... I think the biggest length issues are in the history section, which should be 3/4, maybe even half as long. On the other side, the Literature section seems embarrassingly brief. From my understanding of Byzantine music (I created the List of Byzantine composers article), the emphasis on instruments is hugely undue and much more discussion of composers, genres and music rituals should be instead substituted. Aza24 (talk) 22:30, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am reluctant to commit, given other constraints, but with a day in the library I could seriously improve the bloated history section. We shall see. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:57, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with SandyGeorgia. Even if it were thought that a very long article would be needed even to summarize this topic well, this is not in any shape to be considered featured article class. As Sandy points out, there are too many deficiencies for a featured article. It will be a big task to make the needed improvements and, I think, few if any reviewers available to undertake it. Donner60 (talk) 06:41, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with all of the above. If there's a collective push to save this article I would chip in but it's way too modern for my usual area and I'm in no position to lead it. Aside from all of the valid criticisms already made, I am surprised to see not a single mention of slaves/slavery in the article. We have Slavery in the Byzantine Empire which seems to suggest that there were major changes to the institution of slavery from how it had been in classical antiquity... Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 10:35, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Caeciliusinhorto-public it looks like work is progressing; are you in? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:43, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the ping SandyGeorgia. Between Christmas and other real-life stuff I probably can't commit to much but I'll watchlist the page and poke my nose in if I have anything useful to contribute. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:40, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to FARC, it looks unlikely anyone can or will take this on. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:34, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to FARC per the above. Z1720 (talk) 14:49, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to FARC it seems like even basic maintenance tags are unaddressed. Apropos of nothing, I am surprised that this article manages to be even longer than my own African humid period. I caveat though that I see though that Biz is doing a bit of work on the article? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:39, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I've been taking a break due to life, but before I touch this topic again I want to read Anthony Kaldellis's The new Roman Empire and complete my research on a draft I'm working on. I think there are some easy improvements that could be made. I prefer to collaborate with people and take a section by section approach as I go deep into the sources and more interested in factual accuracy as it supports a narrative than word smithing. Biz (talk) 20:15, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I am also reading this book, and I would like to contribute to improving this article the best I can. If I can help you in an adequately directed way, I would be happy to. Remsense聊 13:17, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Biz and Remsense: What is your timeline like - are you hoping to work on this within the context of FAR? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:02, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Not sure. I don't have time to commit due to life circumstances, have not finished Kaldellis yet because I'm 4 deep in other books, but throw me a bone... @Future Perfect at Sunrise @Furius @DeCausa what do you think is best to improve the article? Biz (talk) 07:04, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Conversely, I do have time, but I am intimidated in the task and would feel most comfortable as the "junior partner" in an article cleanup where I'm possibly doing tasks specifically requested by others with more intuitive expertise, like I am presently doing at the other FAC Battle of Red Cliffs. This is a big topic of my interest, but it's not my specialty.
    If anyone else wants to help and knows exactly what to do, but doesn't have the time to do it—I have that time at present. I hope that's useful. I've been grabbing the sources cited so I have them on hand. Remsense留 15:47, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    If you have time, and like to read sources, then I have a project that will prepare us for productive editing. It's the approach I would take and if we set this up right, I'll happily involve myself as well when I find a minute as this is the fun bit for me but also the most time consuming. This can be a parallel process to any editing that occurs. It will align people and can be used to settle Talk disputes. If more people want to involve themselves, it gives a common reference point for editing.
    1. Read all the sources referenced to statements and document with quotes and/or bullet points what they say.
    • Check they actually say what was written
    • Check for patch-writing
    • Use this an opportunity to identify historians who might have written more research that updates our knowledge. Bruno Rochette on language is a good example of that, as he wrote a more recent paper (2018) that, I think, responded to misinterpretations of what he wrote in 2012 (and that Wikipedia used as the basis of its narrative in the Roman Empire article section).
    • Documenting this means you can have other people help with the evaluation
    2. Read the article and sources in Roman Empire and see if there is anything there we can use.
    • There should be synergies between these articles
    • When these articles talk about each other as different empires, we should probably understand why.
    3. Finish reading Kaldellis's The New Roman Empire. See if anything he introduces supports the sources, the narrative or challenges them (the Iconaclasm is an example).
    • If you want to take this article to an even higher level, chase down Treadgold’s 1990s work and see where he and Kaldellis agree or differ in views.
    • In my view, this article should read with what Treadgold and Kaldellis have written in their books as the primary sources as they are the most recent academic historians to write about the topic at length.
    • Specialist historians on sections should be used of course to delve into issues but as we are looking for consensus what Kaldellis and Treadgold have said should be the test for consensus.
    The act of doing this will give us plenty of inspiration to start editing and improving the article on what substantively it needs. As it’s a large topic, I suggest this is done in sections to make this less over-whelming. If there is a way to set this up as a project, other people can contribute. By reading the sources, the edit prioritization will just naturally emerge.
    Further, by doing this, copy editing I think will be more informed and it will allow us to make the article more concise with the content that matters. Biz (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think we all agree that this shouldn't be an FA. It would be good to get a clear summary of why it's not and of what needs to change.
I have a lot of respect for Biz's work and especially for their careful section by section approach, but that does mean that the talk page tends to focus on points of detail and nomenclature.
Thus, we don't currently have a holistic overview of how the article should change. It would be good to have that. If FA review could give us that, it would be worth doing. If there is another, better venue, we should do that. Furius (talk) 07:41, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. That said, I do think Kaldellis’s book — the first new academic narrative since the 1990s — should be a standard for us to measure the current article beyond the maintenance tasks. Despite some issues, it’s remarkable well written. If we have a group of people commit to reading it before editing we will be all on the same page and the article will be all the better because of it.
One suggestion on approach is we understand this is a big project and do drives every so often on sections. It will make this a sustained effort then (and action will breed other action). If a regular group of editors have experience working together, they can just jive off each other’s edits. If people revert and becomes a problem, we take it to talk. What’s key is we set the expectation that we are blowing up a section and ask for people’s collaboration in edits rather than hash it out on talk. Biz (talk) 05:39, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am currently already reading it as I've said above, and I agree with your praise. Also with your methodology, I am fully onboard. Remsense留 05:55, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I can work with Kaldellis as a foundation, I also have access to the relevant Cambridge history; I can get going in around a week, if that's acceptable. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:15, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Word counts by major section
  • Lead: 571
  • Nomenclature: 307
  • History: 10,090
  • Government and bureaucracy: 924
  • Science and medicine: 528
  • Culture: 3536
  • Economy: 418
  • Legacy: 416
Lead can be done last (and where Talk wastes the most time so let's stay away from it). Nomenclature has undergone a major review recently so no need to focus on that now. The Language section in Culture is 519 words, a good 1/7th of that section and larger than the two sections after it -- the languages section in Roman Empire has undergone a recent deep review by me so we can lean on this to re-evaluate this section. Oh, and history, let's look at that as clearly this needs work:
  • Early Byzantine history: 1026
  • Justinian dynasty: 1081
  • Arab invasions and shrinking borders: 1312
  • Macedonian dynasty and resurgence (867–1025): 2170
  • Crisis and fragmentation: 491
  • Komnenian dynasty and the Crusades: 1694
  • Decline and disintegration: 1282
  • Fall: 309
  • Political aftermath: 725
Was hoping to finish Kaldellis before editing again -- with my travel and other commitments, optimistically it won't be before January -- but hey, throw a dart and we can start. Biz (talk) 04:14, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For some reason, my non-binding pick is Crisis and fragmentation, it may be easiest to identify the article's broader shortcomings with a short cut from the middle. I can also take a closer look at Language.
Oh, also, the presence of File:Bizansist touchup.jpg seems fairly...not for this decade. It needs to be replaced or likely removed, I'll see what I can source. Remsense留 04:21, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, the most interesting section! Crisis and fragmentation, or rather that time period, is something Kaldellis will be key for as there is a lot of new research since Treadgold.
It's worth introducing the historian Roderick Beaton (with his very excellent, The Greeks: A Global History) who's book tries to make a case that every generation of Greek-speaking regime collapsed when central government was no longer useful. So in the case of the Byzantine Empire, he said long before 1453 and even 1204 occurred. That is to say, this era of 800-1204 is very sensitive how we edit it. Howard-Johnston, Treadgold and Kaldellis are the leading experts on this 'middle' period so I hope you understand my reluctance to have an opinion on this section until I get further with Kadellis. Biz (talk) 04:47, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Let's start at the beginning? (I should note that when this FAR was opened a month ago, I trimmed the original six paragraphs into the current two). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:12, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would also fully support this approach. Remsense留 14:17, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Logical. Ready to roll. Biz (talk) 15:38, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

With three "Move to FARC' declarations, I'm unclear which way this FAR is headed. If you all are intending to save the star, it will be a very long effort, with work best conducted on talk with bi-weekly updates here, while a discussion of how you intend to tackle the size issue will be helpful. How will the article/work be divided, where will summary style be employed? Alternately, if the thought is that the article will be better served by having it delisted, and re-appearing at FAC once reworked, we need to know that, too, so we can move to FARC. I understand people are still reading the necessary new sources, but over a month in, we've seen very little actual article progress, so direction is needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:23, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Per above, it seems like we are going to keep it simple, starting with the history section and go over it chronologically. I've already earmarked several graphics that I plan on replacing or possibly removing. Remsense留 14:26, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)I'm willing to work on the article within FAR, but not outside it. To be honest, the size issue is at the moment secondary to more immediate problems (OR, CLOP, etc.) History section first, then others, when we're all hopefully soaked through with knowledge. As we should be going section-to-section, and just move the comments on each to talk after it's satisfactorily completed. This will be a long job but I wouldn't expect anything else for such an important article (Genghis Khan took me 413 days on my lonesome). At the moment, I'm mildly optimistic—we have three competent and active editors, pretty much a blank sheet in front of us, and if it fails then. well, at least we tried? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:35, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I support working within FAR though these frameworks for review is not something I have useful experience in. Will need to defer to someone else's lead on that. In terms of process, I'm amenable to suggestions.
If we exclude the Lead and Nomenclature, there are 9 history subheadings, 7 culture subeadings and 4 other major sections. By announcing periodic drives on a section and putting eyes on it, even with just 1-3 of us, we'll rip through and make Temüjin-like progress. If we want to do this right, and on balance of all the things needed, I'd say this a 20-80 week project (budgeting 1-4 weeks per section).
I'll put my hand up on the slowest part of this process which is validating existing sources, evaluating other sources people suggest or from other articles, and otherwise assessing current scholarship. This will result in addressing article issues like CLOP and OR, and by extension assist with condensing the narrative which will address the big billboard problem of size. Happy to document notes and note down direct quotes as I read sources which may assist in making this work more accessible so other people can leverage it. Biz (talk) 19:14, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good. Sandy is probably right that we should do all the nitty grity on this FAR's talk, so we don't clog up the main FAR page with all our scribblings. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:39, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Makes sense. So if I understand this right:
  • this FAR page (or its talk?) is where we document a FAR review
  • this FAR talk is where we put notes evaluating scholarship and/or other notes
  • Issues from the above two processes will get posted on the articles Talk page
  • We announce updates here every two weeks
  • After (or in parallel?) of the FAR, we do section by section drives?
Anything else? Who will perform the FAR? And we officially start sometime-ish this month? Biz (talk) 20:08, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think the idea is that everything happens on this page or its talk, and that the improving of each section is part of the FAR. At the end, some other editors will take a look at the article and see whether they think it meets WP:FACR. Is that right SandyGeorgia? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:14, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand Biz's question: the FAR is open, the instructions are at the top of WP:FAR, but there is no time pressure. Other editors will evaluate on this page whether the article meets WP:WIAFA, but it is typical for them to wait until after you all are ready for a new look and as long as you keep this page informed and that work is steadily progressing in the right direction. (I am quite concerned that I haven't seen much progress yet, particularly in terms of re-organizing the content towards a trimmer version.) Where you coordinate the work doesn't matter; it can be on the article talk page, or on the talk page of this FAR, but to avoid clogging this page, the nitty gritty need not be conducted here, unless you need broader feedback beyond the day-to-day improvements. This page is for others to eventually declare Close or Move to FARC in the FAR phase, and Keep or Delist if it moves to the FARC phase. Considering there is a very large amount of work to do, my suggestion is that work proceeds on article talk, and that you let this page know bi-weekly how things are going. If progress stalls, editors are likely to suggest Move to FARC to keep the process moving forward. Perhaps an understanding of FAR functioning can be had by reading through Wikipedia:Featured article review/J. K. Rowling/archive1 (which I I believe is the biggest rewrite at FAR to date). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:41, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the pointers.
I've started the review with some structure on how we approach it in this article's talk page. Open to feedback to do this differently (in the Talk page, of course). Biz (talk) 19:41, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion of approaches may also take place on the article's talk page. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 03:59, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm continuing the rewrite, aided by the others here; @Z1720 and Jo-Jo Eumerus: as the two remaining !votes, is there anything in particular you want to see addressed? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:40, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is at least one section without a source at the last sentence. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:46, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We'll get to that. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:14, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I still see lots of uncited sections. I am happy to cn tag the article if this is requested. Z1720 (talk) 16:02, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes please, that would be a great help! Biz (talk) 16:05, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would appreciate feedback on two sections I've been focused on: Transition into an eastern Christian empire and Language. I still want to do more source work (last paragraph of languages needs verification; waiting for a new book on slavery which may improve the narrative) but I thought now is as good a time than ever to ask if I am rewriting this article to the standard that is expected. (I'm finding it a challenge to balance summary prose with comprehensiveness and neutrality...I've never brought an article to FA standard so I apologise for what may seem obvious to others.) Biz (talk) 00:23, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Christmas Day update: Biz has been working on the language section, while my grand reduction of the history section has gotten slightly distracted; I will be back there shortly, however. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:40, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:45, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've completed my read (40+ hours) of Anthony Kaldellis's The New Roman Empire which was my precondition before I start work on this article.
    • I'm currently focused on "society". It's two-thirds done. @AirshipJungleman29 is taking point on History and it's not an easy task.
      • Languages: need to validate last paragraph sources and final review of copy. This section was completely rewritten by me.
      • Transition into an eastern Christian empire: need to validate two sources still and final proof read to make sure I'm happy with the copy. This section was completely rewritten by me.
        • when I thought I had finished this, someone added a paragraph on slavery, and as I validated the sources, I ended up reading a book Slaveries of the First Millennium by Youval Rotman which helped rewrite it and which is also helping with a lot of other content (like marriage which sits in women right now)
      • I've asked for feedback on the above because I'm not confident in my ability to meet FA standard, and before I embark on the rest of the article.
      • I'm currently reviewing the "women" section and have more literature to read as it's a topic I have no expertise in
        • I'm drafting a new section on socioeconomic and legal rights, that will incorporate sources from the women section I'm reading and that will reduce that section but also make the content stronger I hope (ie, combined with other sources, broader perspective).
        • I'm still evaluating if there needs to be something on "gender" (as part of women or separate) which is something that is coming up in modern scholarship. Can only resolve this by reading a book by Leora Neville
    • Due to life commitments, I expect to be slow moving until February 5th.
    Biz (talk) 20:43, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    History rewrite is ongoing...slooowwwwly. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:12, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@AirshipJungleman29, Biz, and Remsense: How is it going? QuicoleJR (talk) 19:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Halted, and probably will be for the next three weeks due to RL responsibilities. Working on adjacent topics, however, and intending to return. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Same with me. IRL challenges, but have every intention to continue. Appreciate the follow up. Time has flown this past month… Biz (talk) 04:47, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I copy-edited the "Society" section, does that section look better. CosXZ (talk) 21:26, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, thank you! @AirshipJungleman29 added that copy editing tag because I wanted feedback on my writing and actually I've been waiting for this and is partly why I paused my contributions. I would appreciate your continued involvement in copy-editing as we re-write sections. Personally, I'm trying hard to write a balanced and modern narrative supported by stronger sources but it's easy to get caught in detail that another editor can easily correct. Biz (talk) 20:33, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Biz please try to iron out your additions in drafts, before adding them to the rewritten article. Take for example the second paragraph of this edit—none of the three sentences make grammatical sense, and I additionally don't see what relevance it has to a section titled "Central government". ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:59, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By second paragraph, you mean the sentence starting with Phocas?
I'll review the two new sentences on nomos empsychos and re-evaluate which seems to be the only thing you cut from the revision I made. Biz (talk) 01:31, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi all, came across this a few days ago and thought I'd offer my help if there are any particular sections that could do with editing/sourcing improvements? @AirshipJungleman29@Biz & co.? Jr8825 • Talk 21:51, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great! We are working our way down the article, @AirshipJungleman29's driving the history rewrite and also worked on Nomenclature which I also previously worked on, I've completed my work on Society and recently finished Governance. I've gone into a rabbit hole understanding one statement about nomos empsychos and related the impact of Justinian's code, which probably won't belong on this article but reflecting on its relevance still, and plan to focus on military, diplomacy, law after that which has some overlap on the work I've already done.
Economy, architecture, Daily life, Science and medicine, Religion would be next after that so that would be a great place you could pick up on. Arts @Aza24 has previously said they would work on, but otherwise open field! Biz (talk) 23:31, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Starting work on literature in my sandbox. Should get to Art and Music after – Aza24 (talk) 19:09, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've completed a draft for a new literature section, see User:Aza24/sandbox (perma link: [1]). @Biz:, does it seem too long? I was going for as concise as possible, but don't know if I've overstepped. I'll paste it in after I copy edit and go through the sources once more. Should get started on the art section in a few days. – Aza24 (talk) 21:54, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've responded with feedback. @AirshipJungleman29 should also take a look. Biz (talk) 03:24, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! I've made some adjustments (moved your comments to the bottom of the page with replies). Aza24 (talk) 04:40, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, don't have much time to take a look at this at present. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:59, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No worries! The Byzantine Empire will be waiting, since you can't go back to Constantinople anyways. Aza24 (talk) 21:10, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My new literature section has been added. Thanks again Biz for your feedback! I'll look towards doing Art next sometime soon – Aza24 (talk) 02:24, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your work. I've updated the status of the article here: Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Byzantine Empire/archive3. Let's use that page to coordinate on the work, and keep this page for general updates. Biz (talk) 03:51, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Understood! Nice system you got there Aza24 (talk) 16:32, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • After 8 and a half months, this article is still not close to meeting the FA criteria. There are still uncited sections, including the entire "Military", "Clothing", and "Relationship with Western Christendom" sections. Progress also seems to have stalled, with information added recently getting reverted several times. While I appreciate the work done to try to save this, it might be better if it goes to FARC so that it can be evaluated for delisting. Z1720 (talk) 21:33, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I've removed the three sections until more work can be done on them.
    If there is a list of specific issues you want done by a certain time period, I'm happy to prioritise this over the line by line by section review that is currently occurring (albeit at a leisurely pace as I did not think there was a rush and it requires readings and reflection)
    As for the reverting of some of my edits, this has not been a problem for me, as it keeps me to a higher standard when done respectfully. And of the litany of other editors where this occurs, it's been appropriate as we've had talk page consensus on these issues. But I can understand it does not look good. Biz (talk) 20:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The concern is not about specific sections: it's that FAR is about evaluating whether the article should still be considered an FA. Having extended comments on a review makes the FAR page difficult to load, and discussions on article improvements should happen on the article's talk page, while small corrections should be discussed on nomination pages such as FAR. If the article is so far away from the criteria that it cannot be fixed in a couple of weeks, my opinion is to delist it and work on it without the time pressures of FAR, and it can be renominated at FAC when it is ready. Since this has been open for 8 months, and citation problems still exist (even after the above sections were removed) my opinion is that the article probably needs a lot of work to get it back to FA status, which should happen on the article's talk page. Z1720 (talk) 17:17, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Understood. I defer to yours and others judgement. Personally, I like the idea of keeping this as the oldest FA on Wikipedia so would prefer a process where I have time to improve it which is how I understand FARC with extensions is.
    I do want to say that the articles talk page has been inhibiting progress on this article these last few years. Since this FAR started, I've become along with others one of the top authors in the articles history. The work I do is not superficial and will take months. For example, the previous FAR editors added citations but when I checked one, it was to the contents pages (as I read all the sources); and this Bleicken book I've hunted down that is referenced in modern scholarship I've come across is referenced in other articles (ie, Principate) and now that I've read half of it says something completely different to what people think it says (ie, terms like principate/dominate need to be dropped, it was the same legal system since Augustus, there was no hellenistic autocracy change in the emperor which nomos empsychos has been used to represent, etc). Biz (talk) 19:39, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I went down a nomos empsychos rabbit hole, reaching out to academics as it's a multi-disciplinary issue across history, jurisprudence and philosophy. As for why, I've come to realise it's important for this topic, as it underpins narrative bias historians have (ie, Prinzipat und Dominat, Bleicken 1978, 22–24 uses it for periodisation of the Roman Empire that others refer to; Kaldellis all together rejects it; and it separately has had a huge impact on medieval and modern law but that's beyond the scope of this article though it does link to the section about law as it was in Justinian's code). If someone can help me obtain access to Bleicken which I've had trouble with, I would appreciate that. UPDATE: it only took a few hours and two months but I found this out-of-print book that all the scholars reference; now I just need to learn German...
Military is a complex topic I'm reading about now and plan to draft new copy hopefully this month when I get some free time. Biz (talk) 20:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Nikkimaria and @Z1720, I've worked on the bibliography formatting, namely the links to authors and editors, locations of publication and consistent use of ISBN13. Could you review this? Once this is OK'd then I can start work on the reference formatting. Matarisvan (talk) 06:17, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Matarisvan: Feel free to ping me when this article is ready to be reviewed. I could consider the article ready when there is no uncited text, the prose size is reduced (currently at over 13,000 words), and the article has been copyedited (anyone can do that, or even split the work). Z1720 (talk) 06:52, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I was looking for a review of just the formatting of the bibliography. I believe it would be much better to do piecemeal reviews since, as you said, the article size is large. Wdyt? Please let me know, Matarisvan (talk) 07:04, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Matarisvan: I'd prefer to wait until the whole article is ready: there have been times when editors asked me to review parts, only to disappear later. However, the following listed sources are not used as inline citations, and should either be included or removed: Dennis, George T. (1985), Chrysos, Evangelos (1992), Bury, John Bagnell; Philotheus (1911), Antonucci, Michael (1993), Seeck, Otto, ed. (1876). Z1720 (talk) 15:30, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will look through these sources and see if anything in there can be added here. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 16:35, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those are all references that were previously in the diplomacy section, a review completed after Matarisvan's review. I reviewed diplomacy in late July and agree that they can be removed (except the Chrysos that in now listed as a chapter in Shepherd). Biz (talk) 17:36, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Biz, could you confirm whether it would be alright if these 5 unused sources were removed? If so, I will remove them. Matarisvan (talk) 08:01, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, though I think since this was discussed it has been removed. We would love it if you could continue to join us in the review, the more eyes the better. Let's discuss the work on this talk or the articles's talk and keep this page just for pulse general updates. Biz (talk) 16:06, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Doing... History and Arts are progressing but I defer to Airship and Aza given they are updating here. I'm working on Law next
  Doing... Religion was rewritten by an editor with expertise in the topic (Jenhawk777), Economy similarly for the first paragraph by another editor (Graearms) but needs more work, and both will need to be reviewed by different editor later.
  Done Governance and Diplomacy have been recently reviewed.
  Done Also reviewed, but new since the FAR started: Geography, Military (Army, Navy).
  Done Previous sections that are now finalised: Society. They include Transition into an Eastern Christian empire (previously in history), Slavery (new section), Socio-economic (new section partially from women before), Women, and Language.
  Done Nomenclature from before
  Done Infobox has now more tightly regulated and simplified.
  Done Matarisvan has improved the bibliography and converted the remaining references into SFN on the unreviewed sections.
  Not done Other than the before mentioned, what remains is a review of the more straightforward topics of Flags and insignia, Daily Life (Cuisine, Recreation, and we might add Clothing), Science/medicine, and legacy.
  Not done Airship will be proposing a new article layout, which we may implement once we complete the review to restructure the content and address lingering word count issues, as well as to make the content more accessible
Overall: We may not be done but the work we've done has now made all of us in the before mentioned 5 of the top 10 authors of the current article which reflects how extensive this content review has been. We also have a battle tested standard on source usage which if we stick to will put it in the strongest state its ever been while also reflecting the latest scholarship, breathing in a new life for this FA. Biz (talk) 22:58, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:16, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Nikkimaria, we now have only three sections left to rewrite, namely Science & medicine, Legacy and Arts. Other than that, there are only two sections yet to be fully reviewed, namely Daily life and Economy. Once these are done, we have 6 images which need sourcing (compared to the original 12) and TOOBIG issues left to address. I think we could then put the FAR up for voting, though other editors working on the rewrite have raised some more issues which might take a little more time to resolve. Matarisvan (talk) 13:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The reviews for Flags and insignia, Education, and Clothing are now complete. I plan to focus on Recreation, Cuisine, and Religion next. Biz (talk) 05:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Shouldn't we simply go ahead with delisting at this point? It's been over a year now with no real end in sight, and much as I appreciate the efforts at reworking and fixing parts of the article, none of the newly contributed text has been of a quality that we can simply assume to be fit for an FA (just had a quick browse through the "society" and "cuisine" sections, and they are definitely nowhere near FA quality at this point.) All of this will have to go through a new, rigorous review in any case, and that new review can just as well be a fully fresh FA re-nomination. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:04, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That might be for the best. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:07, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it’s a fair to say the rewritten content should not be assumed to meet some standard. But given the ordeal it has been to go through this article, I can confidently say it’s better now than it was before. I am including the work done by previous FAR reviewers who did not do as thorough a job on the sources. Which is to say we should have de listed it a year ago.
    De listing it now may impact the drive to complete this work. I’ll support whatever decision. Biz (talk) 07:45, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Future Perfect at Sunrise, the Cuisine subsection was rewritten recently, and its rewrite has not been completed yet. As for the Society section, could you point out some issues so that they can be ironed out? As for the rest of the article, once the pending Arts and Daily life sections have been reviewed by the editors working on the article, we were planning to put up the article for reviews and voting by other editors. I don't think a delist would be wise at this time, the standards will always keep rising and FACs or FARs may never pass. Matarisvan (talk) 16:29, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, it's just the overall impression of turgid, tortured prose, pretty much throughout. Over-use of heavy nominalizations for describing events and developments (which could be more naturally expressed by verbs); over-use of heavy post-modifiers; imprecise connectors; incorrect relatives; over-use of "would" for things that should be narrated in simple past tense, overuse of "with..." participial clauses, and so on. And much of this incoherence on the purely stylistic level is a symptom of incoherence on the content level – incoherently detailed claims in one part of a sentence that remain impossible to understand because of lack of detail in the remaining context. It's pretty much everywhere, most pervasively in the texts contributed by Biz, who introduces new problems with virtually every new content edit he makes (e.g. the latest one: [2]. Game-boards became increasingly popular in all parts of society, and which along with dramatic performance and sports, reflected the transition to entertainment for private pleasure.. Where to start? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:32, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Examples from the "cuisine" section, for illustration: Back in August this year, this section had a sentence, in the context of describing Byzantine foods that seemed strange to foreigners: The garos fish sauce condiment was also not much appreciated by the unaccustomed; Liutprand of Cremona described being served food covered in an "exceedingly bad fish liquor.". Arguably a bit too much detail, but overall decently written. When Biz first rewrote this in November [3], it came to sound as if the sauce was universally disliked (i.e. including the Byzantines themselves): … while the garos fish sauce condiment which still had a presence from classical times was not much appreciated and described by Liutprand of Cremona as food covered in an "exceedingly bad fish liquor" (which also has an incorrect relative clause, and an incoherent description of a sauce as "food covered in" a sauce). In the latest revisions since then [4], the sentence was left out, but now we have "fermented fish sauce" in an enumeration of the foods that continued from Byzantine times into the modern era (with a link to the modern fish sauce used in East Asia). Problems just keep coming and going. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:04, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If this is feedback you're willing to continue, I'm happy to action. It's a Wiki, which means to me this is a constant work-in-process. Validating sources takes a lot of time. Writing as close to the source language but not close captioning leads to awkward language sometimes. Writing simply can also contribute to turgidity and nominalisation. All this is compounded by the fact that we need a quicker turnaround.
    Whereas the content incoherence you reference, using game-boards, that I worked on this week with recreation: it's a new but much stronger single source I added and it's one of the conclusions that the Roman culture that formed the Hippodrome led to something that resembles private sport today. With the contrast to the start of the paragraph "Chariot races.... and some wild-animal shows..." of how it started as public entertainment. My philosophy is a paragraph should communicate one big idea but yes if you look just at this sentence you will miss this.
    For these reasons, it's appreciated as having more eyes on the copy once sources are verified/expanded is helpful. As was the case with this section this week, I end up spending hours reading/searching sources. However, if this is a systemic criticism of my participation, let's delist as we need to remove the spirit of Momus on this article that's haunted the Talk page for years and that prevents well-intentioned progress.
    A comment on the Garos fish sauce given this reflects my incoherent thinking. This entire section was written as if it was by (and for) Greeks. Using universal language (who cares it was called Garos) to a page about fermented fish sauce (which mentions Garos) seemed appropriate. While an article talking about East Asian cuisine is not relevant to the people not part of the 700m in East and South East Asia, you can scroll a bit further to see Worcestershire sauce, which makes it relatable to modern English audiences. There's something there for everyone. Further, removing a Lombard diplomat's primary source that was entertaining takes away some style, yes. But more valuable, it's the elimination of these unnecessarily opinionated Western European sources that's needed, as it disproportionately denigrates. Biz (talk) 19:41, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Why do I have the feeling you didn't take in any of the concrete points of criticism about these two passages I raised? Do you really not notice the grammatical and logical fallacies even when they are right there in front of your eyes? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:22, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I appreciate the feedback and would like more of it. I think I made that clear. However the tone of your commentary comes across as a character assassination. Which is why I'm asking: if it's feedback, let's continue this and implied in that is not here and perhaps on Talk or with tags to do it in a more consistent way, if not let's delist and find some one else who cares to take this back to FA one day. Biz (talk) 20:33, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Biz you have made three attempts to write one paragraph. Out of interest, do you see anything to improve in the prose of the third attempt? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If my third attempt is bad, I will need you to explain that. The first two reverts you made, I appreciated your reverts. My first edit tried to use source language and it was too abstract (the original text was egregiously off). My second attempt created a double speak first sentence when the text was simplified. Not sure what else you saw. My third attempt the only thing I can see you have issue with is "gradually began to impact all facets of life" is not informative enough. Biz (talk) 18:13, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "especially after the support of Constantine" is very clunky; it should be "especially after Constantine supported it" or similar. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:24, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    By clunky, is it an issue of tone? Less words is my preference as well, but it also shapes what is expressed.
    If we're comparing (A) "Christianity gradually began to impact all facets of life, especially after the support of Constantine" versus (B) "Christianity gradually began to impact all facets of life, especially after Constantine supported it" whats the difference
    • Tone (A) is more formal and abstract. It emphasizes the support as a concept rather than Constantine's personal action versus (B) being being more direct and active, giving a conversational tone
    • Focus (A) shifts focus slightly towards the broader effects of Constantine's support, treating it as an event or state. Versus (B) which focuses on Constantine's personal decision or action as a turning point
    • Immediacy (A) creates a sense of distance, suggesting that Constantine's support was a factor, but not necessarily emphasizing his active role versus (B) which makes Constantine's agency clearer, underlining his active participation in promoting Christianity
    The issue for me, and why I wrote it like this, is do we want to say Constantine was the decision maker or do we want to show instead the historical impact of his support? Biz (talk) 18:50, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No, it is an issue of grammar. Very little of what you wrote above is relevant, or even correct. This whole sequence is making me seriously doubt if you can write at the prose quality needed. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:16, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Biz, perhaps we should reach out to some prose people on Wikipedia. Both John and Tenryuu come to mind. I could leave one of them a message? Or you're welcome to do so. Aza24 (talk) 20:02, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You are correct in assessing an issue because you know the prose standard better than most, but you're not diagnosing this usefully or answering my questions to help me align, which makes me question this sequence as well. The sentence is grammatically correct from the English I know (subject-verb agreement, logical phrasing, use of the prepositional phrase) and it has clarity. The issue you raised is more precisely specifically tone and emphasis. The tone I can change to less formal which you imply but the emphasis you're not addressing and is most relevant as it impacts the meaning.
    "Christianity gradually began shaping every aspect of life, especially as it gained support from Constantine." changes the tone without changing the meaning. Your version changed the tone and meaning.
    @Aza24 That might be helpful. Absent another opinion on this minor issue which is representative of a bigger issue, I endorse the original post to delist. Biz (talk) 20:50, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    (pinged by Biz) I was pinged by the aforementioned user to give some input. As I do not deal with FARs, I do not concern myself with the criteria it has for articles. I will only offer my thoughts on the sentence in question.
    The issue with sentence A is that there's a misplaced modifier. I could assume that Constantine decided to support all facets of life as opposed to Christianity. Sentence B avoids this problem because of the two antecedents in the sentence, only Christianity agrees with the pronoun it.
    That being said, you can try and preserve the construction support of Constantine if it were placed as a parenthetical element immediately after Christianity. Personally I prefer using the Saxon genitive here to cut down on the wordiness. That is,

    Christianity, especially with Constantine's support, gradually began to impact all facets of life.

    —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 23:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Arts update: My schedule has cleared up, so I'm able to give this much more attention. I'm working on expanding the Art section (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Aza24/sandbox&oldid=1260909021) and should be finished within the next few days. I'm planning to combine the art and architecture sections (already done at the Middle Ages artcle); the two are typically treated together in all the sources I'm coming across. After that I'll tackle the music section, a topic I'm already familiar with.
    I suspect the 12th-century renaissance section will be removed entirely. Its not really a thing in Byzantine literature/art, both of which have an earlier 'renassance' amid the Macedonian Renaissance. It seems rather haphzardly constructed, with information better belonging to other sections. – Aza24 (talk) 06:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Alright, art/architecture done... Aza24 (talk) 00:17, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Music section done! Aza24 (talk) 07:06, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break

edit

Two things about the history section @AirshipJungleman29:

  • I'm not sure the Sasanian map makes sense, seems too out of place to have an entirely different empire's territory here; if it was a map of both the Byzantine and Sasanian at that period, it might make more sense. At the moment, it may just confused unsuspecting readers
    • I am not attached to any of the images, providing they are relevant; feel free to adjust as you want.
  • I would definitely suggest that the section headers have more than just dates. They would seem more helpful as navigational tools with something like "Justinian and Heraclian dynasties: 518–717" – Aza24 (talk) 20:41, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Byzantine_Empire/archive3&oldid=1261844019"
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