Wikipedia:Peer review/Kenesaw Mountain Landis/archive1

Kenesaw Mountain Landis

This peer review discussion has been closed.

I've listed this article for peer review because…I plan on taking it to FAC in due course, and I'd like feedback. The man was a prominent judge long before he was baseball commissioner, and I've tried to do justice, so to speak, to both parts of his life.

Thanks, Wehwalt (talk) 22:36, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

The length of the articles means review in stages, but I'll do my best to get through it. On the basis of the lead image he looks a pretty formidable character. Brianboulton (talk) 16:38, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Rather! Thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:41, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments: Some observations on the early sections of the article, to be getting along with:-

Lead

• "He is remembered for his handling of the Black Sox scandal ..., expelling eight players from organized baseball and refusing reinstatement requests". Handling, expelling, refusing is too much "ing", and the grammar is dubious. I suggest "He is remembered for his handling of the Black Sox scandal ..., when he expelled eight players from organized baseball and refused reinstatement requests".
• Same problem with the sentence starting "Landis spent much of his youth in Indiana, leaving school at fifteen and working in a series of positions..." I suggest replace "leaving" with "where he left" and "working" with "worked".
• Second paragraph, penultimate sentence: the justification for "but" is not obvious unless you expand, e.g. "but closed it when..."
• Second para, final sentence: an "and" conjunction should not be used to link unrelated information
• "over $29 million" → "more than $29 million" (reads better)
• "his 1944 death" - as distinct from all his other deaths (ha ha)? Or, maybe, "his death in 1944".

Young man in a hurry

• Not sure about section titles like this. A little interpretative, and POVish, surely?
• An approprite link should be use for "Mennonites". The comma after "Mennonites" is unnecessary
• I wouldn't refer to Abraham Landis as "Dr" before explaining that he was a physician
• Last sentence looks out of place, and the cryptic reference to "listening baseball men" needs rethinking. What is a "baseball man" anyway?
• Link "Congress" (esp. for non-USA readers)
• "Offered a pro contract" → "When offered a professional contract..." (slang abbreviations should be avoided) No comma required after "ballplayer".
• Could we have a year for when he enrolled at Cincinnati's YMCA Law School? Also, what year was his "final year of law school at Union Law School", and can the repetiyion be avoided somehow?
• Repunctuation required: "He began a practice in Chicago, served as an assistant instructor at Union and, with fellow attorney Clarence Darrow, helped found..." Or you could delete the commas after "and" and "Darrow", which is probably a better solution.

Washington years

• Something missing in the first paragraph, which should explain that Gresham employed Landis, and in what capacity.
• The sentence beginning "President Cleveland grew to like Landis..." is overlong and needs splitting into two.

More on the way. Brianboulton (talk) 18:47, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I knew that section title would be a pain ... oh well. I'll get to these tonight. Thanks much.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

All done, though I varied from your suggestions in addressing the issues.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:59, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

A little more...

Judge

• Wouldn't "brother-in-law" be simpler than "sister's husband"?

Yes, though someone might misread it to think that it was a brother in law the other way, i.e. one of the Landis brothers.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:38, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

• Last sentence: I can't work out from this whether or not Landis was pro or anti-rebating.

I got $29,400,000 says he was against.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:38, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Standard Oil

• "Trusts often sought to purchase or otherwise neutralize their competitors, allowing them to raise prices to high levels." In this wording, "them" is ambiguous. Not quite sure how this could be reworded, though.
• Please give us poor Europeans the dates of Theodore Roosevelt's administration
• Unnecessary name repetition: "After several days, Rockefeller was found at Taconic Farm in northwestern Massachusetts, the estate of Rockefeller's lawyer".

Prominent judge

• Don't think that I'm making a habit of knocking your titles, but I would have thought, given the reception he got after the Standard Oil case that he was already pretty prominent.
• A baby girl should surely not be called an an "it"? Perhaps "the child".
• "Mr" unnecessary
• Maybe date the caption? (very odd pic indeed)

Yes, that is why I grabbed it, it is Landis at a ballgame, tie askew and cigarette in his mouth, which you never, never saw as commissioner (I do not know if he had views on smoking, but I just am not aware of other pictures showing him smoking). Unhappily, it is not dated and the piece I got it from implies that it is from the newspaper's files. I could say "published in", but that might be misleading. By some accounts, Landis was loudmouthed as a baseball fan, but I don't have enough confidence in the sources to include that. The photo kinda implies that, though.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:37, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Brianboulton (talk) 19:02, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Except where noted (I did not change it to brother in law), these things are done. As I lack accurate date for that image, I can't do much with the caption.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:41, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Continuing...

Wartime cases

• "The entry of the United States into World War I in April ended Landis's determination to resign, as the judge, a great supporter of the war effort, felt he could best serve the country by remaining on the bench." Might be a little tidier as "The entry of the United States into World War I in April ended Landis's determination to resign; a great supporter of the war effort, he felt he could best serve the country by remaining on the bench."
• "Landis's first case allowing him to show his disdain for draft dodgers and other opponents of the war came in July 1917, when he presided over the trials of some 120 men, mostly foreign-born Socialists, who had resisted the draft and rioted in Rockford, Illinois." The wording seems slightly cumbersome; I have played around and come up with: "Landis's disdain for draft dodgers and other opponents of the war was evident in July 1917, when he presided over the trials of some 120 men, mostly foreign-born Socialists, who had resisted the draft and rioted in Rockford, Illinois." Just a suggestion.
• "All were ordered to register for the draft after serving their sentences—except 37, whom he ordered deported." The distance between "All" and "except 37" creates problems. Consider rephrasing: "All except 37, whom he ordered deported, were required to register for the draft after serving their sentences."
• "would preside" - why not "presided"?
• (comment) I love the description "the face of Andrew Jackson three years dead" Very apt, too!
• "Landis is generally conceded to have tried United States v. Haywood, et al. in a fair manner." I'd delete this; it reads as editorial summing up.
• Likewise, the "smiles" caption is not really encyclopedic, is it?
• "interred near Reed"; it might be worth a line explaining what Reed, an American journalist, was doing in Moscow.
• "The war ended in November 1918." Indeed it did, but a specific statement of the fact is surely unnecessary. The paragraph could begin: "With the ending of the war in November 1918, Landis..."

Building trades award etc

• Third paragraph: the section beginning "A bill barring..." is rather oddly tacked on to a paragraph the substance of which is the bank teller case, and it might be better to separate it.

I think it is best to keep the gathering storm around Landis building chronologically.

Much as I am loath to leave the old brute, I will have to defer comment on his baseball career as I have some urgent work to get the slightly more fragrant Kathleen Ferrier ready for PR. I will endeavour to return in a day or so. Brianboulton (talk) 21:02, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I think I'm up to date again except as noted. Yes, I have been noting your work on Ferrier, another person I know little about and was glad to read up on.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:38, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

And finally...

Black Sox scandal

• You need to state specifically that the World Series was between these two teams. Someone ignorant in the ways of US baseball would not immediately grasp this.
• "Rumors that the series was fixed..." → "Rumors that the series had been fixed
• We have "Rumors ... began to circulate" and "rumors began to spread..." in close proximity. "...and there was speculation" might be a good alternative for the second.
• Explain "winning the pennant"

Search for a commissioner

• When did the Lasker plan for a 3-man commission morph into a single commissioner? The 3-man plan seems to have been widely accepted, and we read of Landis's selection as head of the proposed commission. Then, without explanation, we have "the proposed appointment of Landis as sole commissioner".
• What does "cleared his docket" mean?

Banning the Black Sox

• Curious wording of the last sentence: "remains in force"? Long-dead players surely can't be banned? Do you mean "was never revoked"?

I don't actually know that Bud Selig maintains a list someplace with Shoeless Joe's name on it, but yes, the ban remains meaningful because until he's taken off of it, he is not eligible for election to the Hall of Fame, which his career statistics otherwise would have justified in the first few elected classes (they started electing people in 1936). Weaver is unlikely to be elected, he was a fair player but did not dominate his position, his advocates want baseball to admit he was unjustly treated.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:49, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Cracking down

• "The player had been released by the Browns after admitting to sitting in on meetings with gamblers who were trying to raise the money to bribe the Black Sox, and a minor league official asked if he was eligible." Eligible for what?

He had been playing winter ball against teams which included minor league players, and at least one (unnamed) major league. The President of the Pacific Coast League was getting antsy because his players were playing against Gaedel, and it was against baseball rules for players in organized baseball to play against (or with, for that matter) an ineligible player.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:49, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

I really can't find a way of including all that. I'm going to let it stand and play with possible improvements as time permits.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:43, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Ruth-Meusel barnstorming incident

• The section is rather lengthy and detailed; does a single incident justify this extent of treatment?

Yes, it established Landis's control over baseball; Ruth was the most popular player. Landmark incident. People will expect it. And it's Babe Ruth ....--Wehwalt (talk) 22:49, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

• It's been ages since "Spink" was mentioned, so he should have his full name here.
• "the slugger": is this a technical baseball term, or an informal way of referring to Ruth? If the latter I think it should be modified.

Major-minor league relations etc

• The Browns: I'm sure they were identified earlier, but it would be better to have their full name here, to help readers follow the story.
• Some problems with baseball-ese. For example, what does it mean, to "strip the Browns ... of infielder Phil Todt"?

Baseball color line

• "Robinson integrated the major leagues in 1947 with the Dodgers". I assume this is shorthand for something like "Integration of the major leagues began in 1947 when Robinson signed for the Dodgers". One black player joining one club is a step forward, but cannot be described on its own as as the integration of the major leagues.

I'll rephrase. All major league teams were integrated by 1959, fyi.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:49, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

• "At the time of his appointment as commissioner, Landis was considered a liberal on race questions." Considered by whom, and on what particular evidence?
• I think we need a reminder about the impeachment efforts - I'd forgotten this detail
• "Veeck initially placed some of the blame on National League President Ford Frick, but later reserved blame exclusively for Landis" Clarify whether "initially" means in the book, and "later" means in the interview.
• "In November 1943, Landis was persuaded by sportswriter Sam Lacy for the sportswriter to make the case for blacks..." Very clumsy and repetitive. How about "In November 1943, Landis agreed after some persuauion that sportswriter Sam Lacy should make a case for blacks..." etc

World Series and All-Star Game etc

• Overlong sentence beginning: "After Landis was blamed..."
• Can you explain "night baseball"? Does this literaaly mean through the night, or does it mean evenings? The final phrase also needs clarifying; was the ban on Sunday baseball, or just on Sunday night baseball?

Night baseball simply means evenings. I'm not sure this can be clarified without talking down to an audience which knows very well what night baseball is, but I will look more closely at it. The ban was on Sunday night games, really because one or both teams might be playing the next afternoon someplace else, and that was cutting it close in an era when baseball teams traveled by train.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:18, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

World War II etc

• "Many major leaguers were drafted;" - clarify that this means into the military!

Finally: a point I may have missed in my readthrough. For how long into his commissionership did Landis continue to sit as a judge? Perhaps this could be clarified in the final session?

I was trying to keep the two roles entirely separated. About fifteen months. It's set forth in the infobox.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:18, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Some of the detail was over my head, and I may have missed a few points, but overall an absorbing article about a formidable man. Brianboulton (talk) 22:35, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll clean it up most likely tonight or tomorrow. I will say that the likelihood you would review the article at some stage to tone down the baseball terminology and legalese. I do have another reviewer who is more familiar with baseball hopefully coming in, and User:Baseball Bugs informally looked it over and did not have any specific complaints.

Coemgenus comments

I'll tack my comments on down here:

Boyhood and early career

• The part about owning his own livestock seems like a non sequitur.
• "He took his law degree..." Do we say that in America? I thought that was just a Britishism. The meaning is clear enough, if you want to leave it, but it stood out to me.

I ran a google search and it did not seem to be rare in the US--Wehwalt (talk) 02:30, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

OK, sounds good to me. --Coemgenus 13:04, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Standard Oil

• I don't think the last sentence is germane.

Baby Iraene

• The sentence about King Solomon is awkward. I know what you mean, but it doesn't quite flow.

Wartime cases

• "men indicted" or something like it would sound better than "indictees".
• The sentence about the jury charge is awkward. Maybe "On August 17, 1918, following the closing argument for the prosecution (the defendants waived argument), Landis charged the jury. The lead defense counsel objected to the wording of the jury charge several times, but Haywood believed it to have been fair."
• Where you talk about Reed being interred in the Kremlin, it's not clear which Reed you mean. I'm guessing it's not Reed Landis, but do you mean John Reed? Since he's only mentioned as a journalist above, it might be good to mention his first name when you reintroduce him as a communist.

Nice catch! I had not noticed that.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:36, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Black Sox

• You say that three teams were duelling for the league lead. Might "battling" or "competing" work better?

Search for a commissioner

• "one-man commission" -- is that from the source? One-man commission sounds weird, but I guess since the office is "commissioner," maybe it makes sense.

  Yes. The justification is from page 55 of Spink: "Dreyfuss and most of the National Leaguers preferred a one-man Commissioner, but they were willing to go along with the three-man National Commission so long as Ban would play ball with them and help Heydler find that new strong chairman."--Wehwalt (talk) 20:27, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

_________________________________ As I have permission from a FAC delegate to nominate this article, I am going to close the article. I feel three editors (including Baseball Bugs) have looked at the article, and though one is still working, there's been nothing seen that is an impediment to FA. Thank you all.