Talk:folier

RFV discussion: November 2021–January 2022

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folier

In a few dictionaries... MooreDoor (talk) 12:10, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Attested in the OED by only one 1671 quotation, and the OED notes that the word is "[o]f doubtful genuineness; the author was a German"; German Folie means "foil", so it could have been an error on the author's part. — SGconlaw (talk) 12:57, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

I managed to find two quotes, but we still need a third. Kiwima (talk) 04:42, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

@Kiwima: the 1756 quotation is actually a different part of the 1671 quotation indicated in the OED. Note that Birch was quoting a letter dated 1 November 1671 (Julian calendar) by "Dr. Fogelius" (as mentioned on page 489), so it would be more accurate to indicate that as the date of the quotation. — SGconlaw (talk) 21:35, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

I thought I'd found another cite but it was just a different sentence in the other already-cited work, the consular report. Century has this as "1. Goldsmiths' foil. [Rare.] 2. A leaf (of an herb or a tree); a sheet of paper; also, foil of precious stones. Richardson.   Concerning the preparing these foliers, it is to be observed how and out of what substance they are prepared. Hist. Royal Society, II. 489." They are citing Charles Richardson's A New Dictionary of the English Language, which has "Foil. Folier. } Lat. Folium; Fr. Feuille. "A leaf (of a herb or tree;) also, a sheet or leaf of paper; also, the foyl of precious stones or looking-glasses; and hence, a grace, beauty, or glosse given unto," (Cotgrave.) It is in English applied, consequentially, to— […] Folier is the name given to the foil used by goldsmiths." As our first cite says the foil is made of copper, and the other cite says it can be either gold or silver, I've broadened the definition from only gold. - -sche (discuss) 19:35, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

The existence of the second citation complicates the OED's idea that this could be one author's (consistent, repeated) error for Folie, although I suspect it does derive from a nonlemma form of that word, perhaps an old German compounding form Folier- as in Folierflitter (Meyers Grosses Konversations-Lexikon (1908), volume 6, page 698: "Flitter, kleine, dünne Metallblättcheen (Folier-flitter), aus Gold- und Silberblech oder […] "), or a Danish/Norwegian/Swedish plural folier. I considered that the (e)r might have originally been purely orthographic representing only a vowel as in juggernaut, and thus that it might derive from the lemma form Folie or folie in one or more languages, but Johann Gottfried Flügel's 1856 A Complete Dictionary of the English and German Languages, page 546, has: " […] Folier, fo¹ʹ-li²-u²r, s. T. das Glanzblatt, die Folie." and Samuel Johnson's English Dictionary (1835) also thinks the r is pronounced: "Folier*, fo¹ʹ-le¹-u²r. n. s. [foeli, Dutch.] Goldsmith's foil. Hist. R. Soc." I still can't find a third cite. - -sche (discuss) 21:23, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

RFV-failed Kiwima (talk) 21:35, 11 January 2022 (UTC)