Talk:platitude
Missing sense?
editChambers 1908 also defines it as "flatness", which fits the etymology but isn't a use I've encountered in English. Equinox ◑ 01:23, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
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Rfv-sense "A claim that is trivially true, to the point of being uninteresting." Tagged by User:Tooironic in May 2018, but not listed. — surjection ⟨?⟩ 08:42, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Here Wittgenstein’s statement “We cannot cross a real bridge until we come to it” is called a platitude. And here that fate befalls the claim that the connection between a name and its referent rests on an arbitrary convention, whereas depiction is based on resemblance. And, finally, here we find the term applied to the belief that causation is a natural relation between events. These fit the contested sense better than the other ones; for a more perfect fit, instead of “is trivially true”, we should say “is commonly considered trivially true” – the cited sources go on to elaborate on said platitudes, arguing they are after all not so trivial as one might suppose. All have in common that these are philosophical platitudes, so the label “(philosophy)” may be in order. --Lambiam 10:32, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
RFV-passed Kiwima (talk) 00:13, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
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Rfv-sense: (countable) A claim that is trivially true, to the point of being uninteresting.
Can we verify that this is distinct from the first sense: "An often-quoted saying that is supposed to be meaningful but has become unoriginal or hackneyed through overuse; a cliché." The challenged definition would have it that "2+2=4" and "It is what it is" are platitudes. I don't think so. DCDuring (talk) 17:29, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
- In fact, here and here they do list "It is what it is" as a "platitude", but if it is, then I would say it is by virtue of sense #1, and does not require a separate sense #2. Mihia (talk) 19:17, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thinking on this, in my idiolect a platitude must have a saccharine quality or be hallowed by tradition. It also helps if it is in some way self-serving for the speaker. IOW, if a platitude is sincerely offered to comfort someone, it no longer seems so platitudinous. But that's just my idiolect. DCDuring (talk) 02:35, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- For me, to be a platitude an utterance must be a banality, devoid of any depth. Like saying, upon hearing someone’s beloved husband died, “It must have been his time.” Or when someone is dejected because of a plan not working out in spite of strenuous efforts, “¥ou can’t win them all.” Or a politician saying, “We must all come together and look forward.” --Lambiam 21:55, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
- This is the sense I am most familiar with as well. However, the examples you cite are all of the first sense: cliché, over-used statements. Many platitudes do not involve clichés, and may in fact be entirely unique, just boring. I've added some cites that reflect this better, but it's arguable whether or not the senses are in fact distinct. It might be better to merge the two senses rather than keep one or the other, though I would be inclined to keep them separate. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 19:59, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- Most current dictionaries have just one countable and one uncountable definition. "Flatness" may be a dated, archaic or obsolete sense. DCDuring (talk) 02:35, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- “Flatness” is the original, literal sense of the French term (plat + -itude) borrowed by English. --Lambiam 21:55, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
- I wonder whether platitude was ever used in English to mean "flatness" in anything but a figurative sense. “platitude”, in The Century Dictionary […], New York, N.Y.: The Century Co., 1911, →OCLC. makes me think that use on a physical, geometric sense must have been rare. I would be surprised if there would be much use currently in a physical, geometric sense, except in some kind of wordplay. DCDuring (talk) 03:35, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- Personally I have never heard of it meaning literal flatness, and I have not been able to find any examples. There is a brief mention at [1] of the word's first entry into English that makes no mention of its ever having been used literally. I have RFV'd the "Flatness" sense below. Mihia (talk) 13:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
cited. I have tweaked the "flatness" sense a bit, because it is, indeed, not used to mean physical, geometric flatness, but rather to mean sameness. Kiwima (talk) 22:12, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
RFV-passed Kiwima (talk) 17:51, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
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RFV sense "Flatness".
Request either examples of this word meaning literal physical flatness, or elaboration of the definition to explain what other kind of flatness is meant, other than the original figurative one of banality or unoriginality, which is covered by another sense. (Originally raised at Wiktionary:Requests_for_verification/English#platitude.) Mihia (talk) 13:53, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think it's only 'flatness' in a metaphorical sense, which would be included in the subsequent def of the entry (Unoriginality; triteness). The questioned def does not state what kind of flatness -- flat soda?, so it's not clear that a literal reading was intended.
- I think 'flatness' should be combined with 'unoriginarily, triteness' and moved up as the 1st meaning. 'Dullness' might be added. kwami (talk) 06:04, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- That would be consistent with how Century 1911 presented it, but what does OED have to say? DCDuring (talk) 13:25, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- The OED has,
- [a. F. platitude (Dict. Acad. 1694), f. plat PLAT a., on analogy of latitude, altitude, etc.: see -TUDE.]
- 1.1 Flatness, dullness, insipidity, commonplaceness (as a quality of speech or writing).
- 2.2 A flat, dull, or commonplace remark or statement; esp. one uttered or written with an air of importance or solemnity.
- kwami (talk) 01:01, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- The OED has,
- Another angle of attack would be to have a proper entry for platitude#French, which showed whether it was every used in the physical/geometric sense. DCDuring (talk) 13:42, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Trésor de la langue française informatisé[2] gives a literal sense of flatness lasting at least into the 20th century. I like this quotation: "La chebka. Une immense platitude de pierres. Une sorte de néant jaunâtre, sous un ciel sulfureux." (Lenormand, Le Simoun) Vox Sciurorum (talk) 14:22, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's certainly worth adding. kwami (talk) 01:01, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- I don't feel enthusiastic about combining "flatness" with the "triteness" definition, since I'm not sure that "flatness" actually means exactly the right thing, figuratively, to most modern readers. Perhaps the connotations were different in 1911, or perhaps "flatness" was mentioned just because it is the literal origin of the word -- but we have an ety section for that. Mihia (talk) 17:13, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Not important. We could just delete. kwami (talk) 01:08, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- In light of the OED entry, it seems unlikely that citations will be found by 8 November. I don't see merit in including flatness in any of the definitions as it just raises the question this RfV will have answered. DCDuring (talk) 16:00, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- That would be consistent with how Century 1911 presented it, but what does OED have to say? DCDuring (talk) 13:25, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
cited, and I have tweaked the definition to indicate that flatness means sameness. Kiwima (talk) 23:15, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
RFV-passed Kiwima (talk) 17:54, 9 November 2020 (UTC)