Peter Isotalo

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Hello,

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23:55, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Tjej

Hej!

Ang. [1], vad har du för källor på att ordet lånades från just norsk romani? Det känns ju lite underligt kan man tycka. SAOB som du källhänvisar till nämner endast romani.Jonteemil (talk) 01:26, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Pronunciation of German-Swedish names

Hi there, a while ago I asked this in the Tearoom discussion. Maybe you could help me out?

There is a Baltic noble family, the Samson-Himmelstierna/Himmelstjerna family, and I wondered if someone knows how to pronounce the Himmelstierna part. Looking at stjärna#Swedish, there are multiple ways to say the name. The Russian and Latvian versions suggest a 'sh'-sound, but comparing Oxenstierna in Swedish confuses me even more - I had always thought it was closer to 'x' than 'ʃ'. Not to mention how German-speaking family members [in the 19th c.] would actually pronounce their own name. Any thoughts? 2001:1C02:1990:A900:F49D:D84E:B426:1E42 21:56, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

What period are you asking about and what language did this family speak primarily? Peter ^Isotalo 22:32, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, the family itself was already established in the late 16th c., but I understand that they added Himmelstjerna/Himmelstiern only in the early 19th c. Since it was quite a prominent noble family, they spoke not only German, but also French, Russian, English, Latin, Greek even. I have not come across Swedish, but who knows? 2001:1C02:1990:A900:F49D:D84E:B426:1E42 06:11, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

The Swedish pronunciation is relevant only if they used it themselves in my view.

The historical origins of the name itself is of lesser importance. Compare with how "Rothschild" is pronounced in various languages. That the original German pronounciation was something like "wrought-shilt" doesn't mean it's more "correct" than the "Roths-child" manner of pronunciation in modern English. Peter ^Isotalo 10:40, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, sure, but the question is whether they 'Germanized' their name or remained close to the original Swedish. Unfortunately, apart from the Russian and Latvian transliterations that suggest something like 'Himmelsherna', we do not really know. And if the name was indeed pronounced like the original Swedish, I was wondering how the Swedish pronunciation would sound, because the audiofile for Axel Oxenstierna

Audio:

(file)

, admittedly a person from a much earlier period, is closer to 'x' than 'ʃ'. What do you think? Would it be closer to 'Himmelsherna' or 'Himmelhjaena'? 2001:1C02:1990:A900:F49D:D84E:B426:1E42 11:36, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Oh wait, Karmosin... aren't you the one who uploaded that Oxenstierna audiofile? Well, what a funny coincidence. 2001:1C02:1990:A900:F49D:D84E:B426:1E42 12:14, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

The same. The "stierna/stjärna" in that file would be the same as in this name in modern Swedish. Some regional accents of Swedish are more oaf a [ʃ] but in Stockholm (where I grew up), most people pronounce it as an [ɧ] (which doesn't quite correspond to anything in English).

But I just can't give you a straight answer here because it really depends on the primary language where the Samson-Himmelstierna family lived. And it's possible that they even had their own unique pronunciation. Peter ^Isotalo 17:06, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

OK, tusen tack för hjälpen! :D 2001:1C02:1990:A900:9DB3:ED56:B937:B3B7 06:11, 21 March 2024 (UTC)