Talk:Peter Ruckman

This article was nominated for deletion on 28/2/2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Wild Illiteracy

Under the recent, intense, repeated scrutiny of JzG (an "editor") and Arbusto/o (a "known quantity") we no longer capitalize "Bible." You guys are trying to hard to impose your bias that you are destroying the integrity of the product. Fix the bogus link while you are at it. 172.170.52.134

This makes little sense and has been sitting there for days, despite several edits: "Ruckman received his Bachelor of Arts degree from Kansas State University. He obtained his Masters from the University of Alabama and Doctorate from Bob Jones University (then unaccredited institution)." Was the intent to say (then an unaccredited institution)? I think it is still and unaccredited institution. What gives? 172.161.109.194

Arbusto strikes again. The page has read: "He obtained his Masters from the University of Alabama and Doctorate from Bob Jones University (then unaccredited institution)" It has been changed to read "then - and now - an unaccredited institution" and "then an unaccredited institution." Both are obviously better than the poor English Arbusto reverts to (with no reasonin provided). No one seems to have noticed his poor editing or his lack of a justification. Both are a recurring feature in this entry (see editing history). PSRuckman

Suspicious behavior

It seems to me to be a bit odd that as soon as the article is protected PSRuckman joins in to make the same edits. Especially given that some suspicion of similar behavior already exists: [1] JoshuaZ 16:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Even more odd is the fact that he did not simply log in under another user name. I mean, how hard is that? GlimmTwin GlimmTwin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Now one would think it is easy to log in with another user name and make comments, yet it seems difficult for some.[2]. "I mean, how hard is that?" Arbusto 11:38, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

The more I look, the more suspicious this looks. It appears the "same edits" were simply made by highlighting, cutting and pasting. Can that be done? The image was also removed. is that legal? GlimmTwin PSRuckman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Funny how this edit was signed by GlimmTwin yet the editor was PSRuckman[3]? Arbusto 11:13, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppeting

Ok, PSRuckman, cut out the sockpuppeting now. The last edit you made on this page was signed by Glim Twin. Furthermore, you use the same language to refer to Arbustoo [4] as 172.167.165.46 as you do on your talk page here [5]. Sockpuppets used in this fashion are highly frowned upone. See WP:SOCK. JoshuaZ 19:45, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I accept your frown and give it right back to you. Stop vandalizing the page and blocking persons who are attempting to build it into a useful resource.

Also, looks like you have some POV editing to do re Arbusto's latest revision (yes, he continues to edit a page he seeks to have deleted). I wonder if your religious background will help you make an honest decision about it. No, actually, I do not wonder. I have seen enough already. 172.137.216.246

You repeatedly use terms like "POV editing" and "vandalizing" incorrectly. You may want to read the relevant pages. Meanwhile, individual wikipedians religious backgrounds are irrelevant, and your comments in that regard are both unhelpful and constitutes personal attacks. Please desist. I will in the meantime interpret your lack of denial of the sockpuppeting as an admission of such. Desist now. Thank you. JoshuaZ 22:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

OK sockpuppet police, where are you? Arbusto has reverted to "then unaccredited institution" without explanation twice and Infrogmation has made the same revert with no explanation. What are the odds that two people would edit the same page on the same day and have such poor taste / ability in writing? PSRuckman

Contentious edits

1. We do not generally refer prominently to people's doctoral titles in articles even when they come form accredited universities. When they come form unaccredited universities it would arguably be fraudulent to do so. We can say that he has a doctorate from Bob Jones (or should that be his friend Bob?) but we certainly don't say "a.k.a. Dr. Peter S. Ruckman".
2. We do not say "(arguably the most famous)" unless we have a citation.

Truly. JzG will not allow any empirical demonstration of this though. He would rather deny it and force his denial on everyone. His bio (JzG's) suggests he is a religious person and he probably brings views to this topic. He is clearly a poor choice for editing. 172.137.216.246

Truly you do not know how tempted I was to correct that spelling error in large bold type. Just zis Guy you know? 20:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

1. We do not edit the article if we are related to the subject.

Sounds pretty stupid. Especially when you have someone who write as poorly as Arbusto/o172.137.216.246

"Someone who write as poorly" is just too funny. Arbusto 11:07, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Simple enough. Just zis Guy you know? 20:27, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

We seem to have lost the picture. Is that a problem? Just zis Guy you know? 21:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the picture will return someday ... who knows? 172.135.21.128

Who keeps inserting those mindless quotes from some obscure Neo-Nazi that evidently called Dr. Ruckman "Jew-loving"?? Obviously that is compelety from left field and irrelevant. Nobody knows the toothless cracker who came up with that, and his opinon about Dr. Ruckman is some lame attempt to garner celebrity for himself. The troll that keeps doing that should leave wiki and go lurking back to stormfront and thereby increase the IQ of both sites. --— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24* (talk • contribs)

The use of the Dr. title in relation to an unaccredited doctorate

I made some edits - the position of Dr. Ruckman should be stated as accurately as possible. It is obviously a controversial view, but let others argue over its merit elsewhere. I also agree the title "Dr" is being deleted only out of spite. Dr. Ruckman is indeed a briliant scholar, certainly entitled to being called "Dr" - and besides, in this field (i.e., Bible) most schools are either self-accredited or accredited by like minded religious institutions. That does not mean the man is not a "Dr" - he is. 24*

Whether a man is brilliant or not has nothing to do with whether he should be called doctor when his degree stems solely from an unaccredited institution. Furthermore, many bible schools are accredited, for example Baptist Bible College (Springfield, Missouri). Finally, a lack of accreditation in the general class of schools has nothing to do with whether or not the degrees should be treated like they are degrees with a regular, accredited institution. To differentiate between schools in that fashion would constitute original research among other problems. JoshuaZ 20:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

In any case, see how many times you can find the title "Dr." in the article for this article for one of the most famously brilliant scholars ever. Or indeed this article about a preacher man with a legitimate right to use the title. Just zis Guy you know? 20:33, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually the King one has it 4 or 5 times. The Einstein one however has the phrase "Dr." exactly once, in front of the name of the medical doctor who autopsied Einstein. JoshuaZ 20:37, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

The King ones appear to me to be mainly quotes or derived therefrom. Just zis Guy you know? 20:40, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so the bottom line clearly is that we shouldn't put a Dr. in front of Ruckman on Wikipedia. JoshuaZ 20:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. The name without Dr. Googles much higher and the title is open to dispute, that seems grounds enough. Just zis Guy you know? 23:45, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

The false title of "Dr" has been removed again. Arbusto 01:58, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

1. Give it up 24.* This is not about the empirical world. This is about how functional sockpuppets think the world SHOULD be. Every reference to reality will be "disputed" and replaced with a preference for some other world. The quality of Wiki and its usefulness to readers are quite overrated to this trio. PSRuckman — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.148.246.139 (talk • contribs) 08:57, March 8, 2006 (UTC)

Yes, once again the rouge admins are imposing bias on the neutral opinions of poeple who are hardly connected to the subject at all. Much. Just zis Guy you know? 09:20, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

What is the authority for this assertion that keeps being made, that a man cannot be called "Dr." if his PHd degree is from an "unaccredited" institution? Please give us the citation to this rule so the repeated assertion can be either proved or not, once and for all. The institution that accredited Bob Jones University (TRACS) also accredited Liberty University, Tenn Temple, and many others. *snip* 24*

I've taken the liberty of separating your comment from JzG's. Now, the reasons above give a pretty good summary of why we won't. And yes, a degree from Liberty wouldn't give a "Dr." in front of the name on Wikipedia either. Whether or not any of us have titles is irrelevant to whether or not Ruckman should have one in the article. Incidentally, why did you feel a need to wikilink doctorate? Is it because it makes it stand out in nice little blue letters? Why do you feel such a need to overemphasize his degrees? JoshuaZ 02:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Having a degree from an unaccredited school is essentially meaningless because it is not recognized by the academic community (and is illegal in some states like Oregon to claim you have a "degree" if it is from an unaccredited school). So if, say, a doctorate is not recognized since it came from an unaccredited school then the title of "Dr." is not recognized as well.

The fact that the same person who puts the title in is also the same person who removes criticism really shows a POV. Lastly, TRACS has not approved BJU for accreditation (it is a canidate) and even if it had it doesn't matter because Ruckman did not attend while it was accredited. Hence, his degree would have been earned from an unaccredited school. Arbusto 07:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see one example of this. I put the title in, well understanding an empirical reality (the man is widely known by that title). But I also brought back the particularly goofy comment about three marriages and two divorces. The fact that it remains really shows a POV. In addition, I have also asked that a link to the KJV preface be added (as it contradicts Ruckman's basic premise). Indeed, if you had given the matter any attention at all, you would have noticed that I had added more critical information to this reference and other related references than all three of the FSPs combined. The only POV I see is that the three of you seem to think your POV is above reproof and you are more than willing to deny reality and impose your view of how the world should be on everyone else. "Some states like Oregon." Wow. There is an intellectual hotbed! I wonder if the constitutionality of that law has ever been challenged. I couldn't imagine it getting past a district court! This page would clearly be three times more informative and useful but for your "editing." It would also contain much better sources of criticism (since that is certainly the only thing you would ever contribute) than your reference to the unknown whoever. 172.149.188.59

According to Google he is more usually not known by that title. Just zis Guy you know? 22:31, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

PSRuckman, it would be nice if you would just sign in with your name rather than construct sockpuppets. Thanks. JoshuaZ 17:36, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

It would be nice if you would be more civil JoshuaZ. I did not accuse you of sockpuppeting when you failed to sign something recently. Furthermore, you proved the point I made elsewhere. You addressed nothing that was said and focused entirely on who you thought the writer was. Good show, mate. PSRuckman

Well I'm certainly happy to hear that this wasn't a sockpuppet attempt on your part, especially since in the section above [6] it seemed like you didn't mind sockpuppeting. Now, to more substantial issues. JzG addressed the matter succintly although I am curious as to a) what makes you decide that Oregon is somehow not an intellectual state and b) why do you think that matters? Also note that such laws have been on the books for a very long time so it is unlikely that they would be found to have any Constitutional problem. I'm also curious, what in the Constitution do you think such laws would violate/ JoshuaZ 04:05, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

NO,NO,NO... *snip*. Bob Jones University is not an illegal degree mill. It is authorized to give phd's in the state of South Carolina - such a degree may not be recognized in other states without disclosure of the institution's status. It does not however amount to a veto right that any state has over the use of the title "doctor" by a phd who holds his degree from another state. Sort of like me saying Bill Clinton isn't a real lawyer because he is only a member of the Arkansas Bar. He can't practice law in California, but that does not change his status. *snip*— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24* (talk • contribs)

Among other issues. Please see WP:NPA. Calling people "bozos" is highly frowned upon. That said, there is a massive difference between being a lawyer, which is a trade and is thus generally has ability to practice determine by states, and doctorates which are academic degrees. Please do not conflate academic and trade titles. JoshuaZ 17:29, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

There is some simialrity, in that "Dr." seems to be used by these guys in place of "Reverend." But it is still bogus. Just zis Guy you know? 22:31, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Nothing gets through to you, eh? As for personal attacks, I find it HIGHLY OFFENSIVE that some hateful (and illegal in many jurisdictions) quotes from a neo-nazi, Hitler-loving ANTISEMITE wacko keeps showing up in this article. The fact that these quotes are not immediately removed by those super-sensitive souls that don't like being called "bozos" themselves only reinforces the compliment in their regard. Lawyers who ARE NOT LAWYERS IN OTHER STATES still get to be called "lawyer" and you haven't given any good reason why this analogy does not apply in this situation. Dr. Ruckman is 100% entitled to be called "Dr." in the State of South Carolina due to his earned degree in that state *snip* Why don't you "conflate" a little over that one and stop the unnecessary deletions of "Dr" for Dr. Ruckman. 24*

First, please keep in mind that using all caps and insulting people will not make anyone more inclined to agree with you. In general shouting using capslock makes people lose credibility rather than gain it. That said, whether or not a quote is from a nazi, Hitler, the devil, Darth Vader, or The Lone Power is not relevant as to whether you can engage in personal attacks on Wikipedia. Desist, now as to Hymers, a quick google search did not turn up any Nazi connections between R. L. Hymers. Could you possibly provide information that would in this regard? As for your comment "Lawyers who ARE NOT LAWYERS IN OTHER STATES still get to be called "lawyer" . You again misunderstand. They are lawyers then who are not liscenced to practice in those other states. This is very different from an academic degree. (also, "spiteful wikiwonk" is another on the WP:NPA list. If you persist, I will report you to an admin.) JoshuaZ 04:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Quotes from some so-called "Pastor V.S. Herrell" were inserted, and nobody deleted them. That is the sort of garbage that invites outrage. From your comments it appears you have no sense how unacceptable this is. You can't seem to make a logical connection between things, as in "whether or not a quote is from a nazi, Hitler, the devil, Darth Vader, or The Lone Power [sic] is not relevant as to whether you can engage in personal attacks on Wikipedia" Huh? Don't accuse me of anything *snip* because that sentence makes no sense at all. As it says WP:NPA "you should be very careful not to define "personally attack" too broadly, or to do this too frequently." So back off. *snip* reported is the dangerous*snip* Herrell's "mongrel, jew-loving" comments. 24*

Can you answer my question or not? What evidence do you have that Herrell is a Nazi? JoshuaZ 05:21, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, then you tell us what you think about "Pastor V.S. Herrell" - how would you describe his views? 24*

Thank you for not answering the question. Yes, it is trivially obvious that the man is anti-semitic. That doesn't make him a nazi. Evidence please? JoshuaZ 05:26, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

"Neo-Nazi" not "Nazi" ... And how is that wrong? 24*

Ok, evidence the man is a neo-nazi then? JoshuaZ 05:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, Josh, the solution here is for you to start a Wiki article on Herrell, and tell everbody how herrellites are not neo-nazis at all, they just call people "jew-loving mongrels" as a term of endearment. We're looking forward to you doing just that... 24*

There are many people who are anti-semitic who are not Nazis or neo-nazis. May I conclude from your above responses that you have no evidence this man is a neo-nazi? JoshuaZ 05:42, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

From http://www.christianseparatist.org/catalog/realhitler.html

New from the Nationalist Free Press , The Real Hitler by V.S. Herrell ­ "The proof that history need not be dull is V.S. Herrell's book The Real Hitler: a moving, exciting and thoroughly researched, honest story of Hitler's life, his birth, youth, and development into the greatest German statesman in 2000 years. "V.S. Herrell shows you the real Hitler, not the man lied about in the Jewish press. He demolishes their lies with proof from Hitler's published works and programs. Nothing is more heartening than to honor the truth. V.S. Herrell provides us with the truth unfailingly researched in The Real Hitler." ­ Margaret Stucki, Ph.D. Send cash, check, or money order to: [delete], or order with a credit card by clicking below: 198 pgs. - $15.00" - snip.

So Josh, explain on, what were you saying about Herrell? Pray tell...24*

Yeah, he's a neo-nazi, and the comment should be removed, or at best, strongly qualified. Now, do you see how much simpler this conversation would have been if you had given me that link at the beginning of this conversation instead of having to go through a page of discussion? JoshuaZ 05:49, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Antiruckman Crusaders

The antiruckman crusaders keep inserting their POV into this article. They won't allow (by contentious edits and constant deletions of useful information) anything to stand in the way of turning this into a peon of antiruckmanism. Antiruckmans keep inserting their dogma into the article, such as only allowing PARTIAL INFORMATION regarding the marriage history of Dr. Ruckman. They don't want their smear tactics defused by information regarding how Dr. Ruckman's first wife abandoned him, and how he had to raise his children on his own. That might make Dr. Ruckman look good, so the antiruckman propagandists deleted it. Of course, "Wiki" is not suppose to serve the end of disinformation, but there you have it. The antiruckmans are also religiously fanatical in refusing to allow Dr. Ruckman to be called "Dr. Ruckman" and with gross intollerance delete each and every mention of "Dr" in the article. They fiendishly delete informative all positive factual information, and sling as much of their antiruckman mud as possible. The antiruckmans truly believe they have a mission in life, and lying and unfairness are permissable to the antiruckmans in order to acheive their aims. Antiruckmans include many hateful neo-nazis who also seek to use this article to inflame Jew-hatred. Dr. Ruckman has spoken well of the Jewish people as God's chosen race through which Jesus Christ was born, and who yet have a divine mission in this world. The antiruckmans seek subtle ways of advancing their POV as well, such as by removing the capital "B" from Bible. A capital "B" might imply that it is a book that should be respected, and that might lend credence to Dr. Ruckman's views. Antiruckmans will go to great lengths to deny that their POV edits are POV edits at all, much less that they betray their bitter antiruckmanism. *snip* Don't attempt to reason with them. 24*

Again, WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. What do you think this accomplishes? And incidentally, if you think you shouldn't reason with the "antiruckman propagandists" why are you bothering to talk on this page? JoshuaZ 05:31, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

So you feel personally attacked? Poor fellow, please do let me know how I can make you feel better...24*

You could try signing in, your account is no longer blocked. Just zis Guy you know? 11:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not convinced 24.* and PSRuckman are the same individual, when Ruckman didn't sign in, the resulting IP number was different.JoshuaZ 16:16, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

But surely it's a functional sock puppet? ;-) Just zis Guy you know? 16:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

* Thanks for the big WARNING you put on my page JzG ... There, you wrote "Calling other editors "functional sockpuppets" is a breach of WP:CIVIL and amounts to an allegation of being a meatpuppet. If you repeat this accusation you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia" ... Sounded pretty serious. Let's see, what is the lesson for the day? If I use the term and put a ;-) after it, will you not whine? Yes, it was a rhetorical question. Shall I put a big WARNING on your talk page and make dire threats? Where is the integrity? Clearly I am every individual who diagrees with you three. Learn to love it. I am everywhere and everyone. PSRuckman

They don't have sarcasm on Betelgeuse, and Ford frequently failed to notice it unless it was pointed out to him. Just zis Guy you know? 22:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Lame, but let me go into JoshuaZ mode ... Help me understand. Were you just being sarcastic when you were issuing a warning that you would ban me from Wiki? or when you violated your own made up rule about participating on Wiki? PSRuckman

"Antiruckman Crusaders" is funny. Gee, I guess you're "anti-Ruckman" if you believe only accredited degrees are recogized degrees. Arbusto 00:38, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe there is a site around the internet somewhere from which you can download the irony detection plugin for the human brain. I'll be sure to drop the link by when I find it. Being English of course I have it as part of the standard install. Just zis Guy you know? 16:52, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe spell-check is an even more common function for would-be writers. 172.169.50.129

I can spell very well, thanks - I'm well known for it in the alternate universe they call real life. Unfortunately due to a childhood accident I have bone-deep burn scars across the fingers of my left hand, and that has a detrimental effect on the accuracy of my typing. I would go so far as to say that I can't type worth a damn. Especially when the scar tissue splits, as it occasionally does; this is quite painful and sometimes leads to the nail beds becoming inflamed. If you really want to put the boot in you could I suppose poke fun at the size of my ears, the fact that my name divides into four words each of which means "man", the fact that I am still unable to ride my unicycle, or the absurd colour of my car. Alternatively, you could try making constructive comments about the article. Just zis Guy you know? 22:36, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for suggesting contructive commentary. I highly recommend it as well. PSRuckman

Sentence?

Not to be overly critical ... but can we do something about this: "Graduates of the school reportedly go on to become evangelists, pastors and missionaries, but details are sketchy and the school has no website, and no details of faculty, student numbers or prospectus appear to be available." I think, here in America, this might be a run-on. Maybe they have different rules in Enlgand, or "some states, like Oregon." Best, PSRuckman

It looks to me like it is grammatically correct but awkward. What would you say to: "Graduates of the school reportedly go on to become evangelists, pastors and missionaries. However, details are sketchy and the school has no website, and no details of faculty, student numbers or prospectus appear to be available." Also, note that in talk pages, the convention is to put new topics at the bottom, this makes things easier to read chronologically if they are interrelated at all. JoshuaZ 05:41, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Two sentences are going to be much better. There are at least three nested in the current version. For factual purposes, contrary to what is written, the "details" mentioned are all available. One of the outside links invites those interested to write for such and provides the address. "Pensacola Bible Institute. Write or call for information. P.O. Box 6235, Pensacola, FL, 32503, Phone Number 850-476-1387" Best,PSRuckman

No the address and phone number does not need to be in there. The reader can view the contact on the webpage that is linked. Arbusto 19:21, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

* Not sure what planet you are on - per usual. No one asked that it be put there. Was simply pointing out that the "details" were available upon request, so what was written was misleading. Calm yourself. I don't think you have to fear this page will become too informative.PSRuckman

Informative... coming from someone with the username PSRuckman who didn't know Ruckman's "doctorate" is an unaccredited degree. BTW: How many people do you expect to write to a PO Box operated by an unaccredited "Dr." to get details on what classes are offered or who the faculty are at an unaccredited "institute" without a campus? Arbusto 03:08, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

* The number that I would expect to write would, of course, have nothing in the world to do with whether or not "details" were available. You can be so silly. Even if you bring up seven other unrelated topics, the language was misleading at best. BTW, I suggest you have the courage of your convictions and put the word university in quotation marks - if a place is not accredited. What is the hold up here? Get on the ball, man. "Without a campus?" Wow. What a hoot. PSRuckman

Where is the campus? Use google.com maps put in the address and link it here. That will allow us to see an image of it. How many American presidents graduated from the "institute"? I would have nominated the "institute" for deletion had it not been merged because a PO Box is not a school. I am willing to bet that not a single person has sent a inquiry to that PO Box for enrollment in the last year. Why would anyone? Arbusto 07:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

You make a good point. If you cannot find the campus, it must not exist. Nice to get some of your editing rules out in the open. American presidents? Wha? The goofy scale is getting quite the workout here. I am guessing the Institute has averaged 30-40 new students a year for almost 40 years now. Thus, your "bet" only needs bucks it. Name your amount and let's make it happen. Still waiting for you to put University in quotation marks? Why are you only fast when it comes to reverting typos? PSRuckman

It's not a "university," there is no reason to think it is. Also is it a logical fallacy to demand proof of a negative. If the so-called "campus" exists then give proof, without proof we have no reason to think it does exist. As for my bet, I don't trust people who have proved themselves deceitful (see my post where I point out PSRuckman signed another username to his comments). Arbusto 19:42, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Will go slow. Put quotation marks around University in Bob Jones "University." Why? Explained three times already. Catch up. Logical fallacy? Too late for you to swing that banner. I know what you mean about trust. I don't trust people who disguise POV edits as "minor" (See the rebuke you well deserved on your own talk page). Meanwhile, I encourage you to reign in your fantasy land. If you don't know of something, it does not exist. PSRuckman

More movement?

Let's see a link to Doug Kutilek, one of the more intelligent writers on the topic of Ruckmanism and KJV only approaches. Yes, "more intelligent" is subjective, but he is generally quite critical, so that should suffice. See http://www.kjvonly.org/doug/index_doug.html. I am not adding the link myself because of my user name ... no, it makes no sense to me either! PSRuckman

Link added. Is there anything else you think should be added? JoshuaZ 15:03, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Great. This may add up to something yet! Would you be so kind as to add "Col." in front of John Hamilton Ruckman? The Col., incidentally, would be (he died in 1966) even more hard-nosed than any of you guys. He would always write ... Bob Jones "University" ... Maybe you should institute a quotation mark rule here as well. It would be much more witty and entertaining than the protecting-the-title-of-"Dr." routine. Best, PSRuckman

I added the title Col. However "Bob Jones University" is the name of the university. It would be highly POV to put the word University in quotation marks. It will still as is. JoshuaZ 18:31, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think that we have established that how something/someone is known is quite beside the point. Why protect the world from fake "Dr."s and not fake "Universities?" Thanks for the edit though. PSRuckman

Edits by 24.*

Several of the edits made by this user were purely factual and quite informative. He/she certainly has more (and better) information on the topic than the FSPs who are trying to make the page worthy of removal (something they have failed at once already). Sorry 24.*. There is no room for your type here. PSRuckman

Funny how you say you did not accuse Joshua of sockpupetting, but you still accuse him of being a meatpuppet (which is the Wikipedia term for the accusation you make here). Just zis Guy you know? 00:00, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

-*snip* An informative article is not the goal *snip*, obviously. Any attempt to sidetrack the antiruckman disinformation campaign will be quickly undone by antiruckman agents. Easy to figure out who's really at work here. 24*

The above edit accomplished nothing more than violating WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. Stop.JoshuaZ 04:41, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

• I think you said it well there Josh. Disagreement with you is incivility. The edits here are clearly the result of some bizarre sense of spite, they are not resulting in an informative entry, and every attempt to reverse the trend is quickly undone. Doesn't get any more factual than that. PSRuckman

I see. Could you point out to me in the above edit by 24.* what was acomplished? I have trouble seeing "it is amazing how spiteful the antiruckmans are" as civil or productive. Accusing the other editors of an " antiruckman disinformation campaign" by "antiruckman agents" also seems to me to be neither productive nor civil. Could you explain possibly how you think they are either of these? JoshuaZ 05:04, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Focus Josh. Focus. The topic is the edits done by 24* to the entry. Please re-read. PSRuckman

I don't know what my "IP" is as I'm at the coffee shop, but this is 24.* The article has many problems:

1. Full birth info, I believe, is (Nov. 21, 1921 - )

• Make that November 19 PSRuckman

2. He does not believe the King James Bible is "the only valid translation" of the Bible. The view is that it is the best and final English version. He believes Luther's Bible was the best for its time and language, and so on. Get his "History of the Church" series for further insight.

• At least one version qualified "for English speaking persons," but that was edited out for who knows what reason. PSRuckman

3. Highlighting "unaccredited" by the schools to a link w/in Wiki on accreditation, while no such link allowed of the "doctorate" to the wiki article explaining the degree and why it is perfectly acceptable for one who earned it to use the title "Dr", this is selective POV linking.

• The distracting interest in accreditation is clearly the result of a POV problem. What gets me is how unevenly applied. If Ruckman does not deserve to be called "Dr." then Bob Jones does not deserved to be called a "University." But, it has be noted elsewhere that conistency in editing is only a matter of the taste of those willing to block other from participating. PSRuckman

4. Dr. Ruckman's early life and conversion experience are left out. His life in Topeka Kansas where he worked as a lifeguard at Gage Park (its the same park that Rev. Fred Phelps made famous). He read a book a day from the age 10, studied all major religions extensively, worked as a radio disc jockey, was an army combat instructor. Got saved at age 27, went that year to Bob Jones. He was one of Bob Sr.'s favorite students. He worked as "chalk-talk" artist, traveling evangelist, and mission hall superintendent.

• No way this stuff can make it. Too factual. PSRuckman

5. A list of his various studies is missing, giving the impression that the only thing he ever did was promote the King James Bible. That is actually a small part of his life's work, as he is a full-time Baptist minister and author on many other topics.

6. His "King James" position should be left to its own category, without all the POV against it. Just the facts, ma'am. The critical statements should go into some other article on "anti-King James Only" or "King James Onlyism", not here.

7. His marriage information either should be deleted entirely, or else given with a full explanation. The fact is his first wife left him after he got saved, and he was left raising several children on his own for about 6 years. He finally remarried, and eventually had 10 children. It is true his second wife also left him, but he is now happily married to wife number three. The story is more complicated than leaving one sentence that portrays him as a serial divorcee.

• At first, I was annoyed by the irrelevent information regarding Ruckman's marriages too, but I personally re-inserted it back in the entry myself (have no idea who wrote it first). I see it as kind of a nice punch line to what is going on in this entry. Indeed, it is so odd and goofy, it red flags the entire enterprise. It is all the warning that intelligent readers would ever need about the POV problem. Notice also that there is no source cited for the information - you know, the kind of referencing that would be DEMANDED for any of the other facts that you mentioned above. PSRuckman

8. Over-kill on "unaccredited" information. We have links, links and explaining that no government aid goes there, etc. etc. Ok, point made. Move on. Enough already, so what!?

• Again, you are on point. But it is a distraction that the POV demands. PSRuckman

9. The word "sketchy" is highly POV.

10. Use of "reportedly" as to the students. Do you think this is like the "moon landing conspiracy"?? No one actually goes there? It is only a post office box? Somebody has been watching too many X-files reruns. Its a small private school that doesn't want or seek accreditation from anybody. It doesn't church out educators, it graduates pastors and evangelists who believe in the King James Bible and are equipped to defend it.

• If Arbustoo cannot find the campus, it does not exist. If he thinks no one has ever contacted the place for additional information, then no one has. The 80-100 students that have attended every year since the early 1970's are fake. Gotta love it. PSRuckman

11. Article says that information "does not appear to be available" yet it is. Anybody can write or call and get the information they want.

• No doubt. The entry is completely misleading. PSRuckman

12. "Ruckman's position is" ... position on what? He has many "positions" on many different topics.

13. For every "criticism" Dr. Ruckman has a different view. For example, the statement that the King James preface "directly contradicts" Dr. Ruckman's view is left hanging. What this person means is that the KJV translators never claimed to be inspired in the preface. And the answer to that is that very few authors of the scriptures themselves made any such claim, either.

14. Links are negative. How about equal time? There are many links to sites that support and agree with Dr. Ruckman's position on scripture.

• I think I am working my way there, but I may be over-estimating the sense of integrity among those lording over the page. We'll just have to wait and see. PSRuckman

15. Other Dr. Ruckman positions that are worthy of mention due to his relatively unique advocacy of them: Separation versus Integration - a view of the races; The Body, Soul, and Spirit - explained; Dispensational view on the Kingdom of Heaven versus Kingdom of God (which he contends are not the same thing); His broadsides against Cambellites and views on Baptism; Spiritual circumcision; Views on the identity of the Antichrist & mark of the beast; Serpent's seed speculation; his use of colorful language in the tradition of Martin Luther.

• Too informative.PSRuckman

16. The paranoid fear of any association with Dr. Ruckman by Christian leaders who actually agree with him (such as Dr. Ian Paisley); and the policies in place at many Bible colleges where students caught with Dr. Ruckman's materials are expelled. 24*

It's funny how two supposedly separate users incorrectly sign their user names and IPs in the same way(ie without the date). So you can either say two separate people with the same syntax and same POV also make that same error. Or you can conclude they are one deceitful person. Arbusto 05:59, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to la la land 24.*, where anyone who annoys Arbustoooooooo must be the same person. Will be a cold day in you-know-where before I am caught in a "coffee shop." :-) PSRuckman

A*-o's evidently got a generalized paranoia that goes beyond a brooding suspicion of all PO Boxes, he also thinks yours truly "24.*" is somebody else! *snip* My understanding is that A*o's accusation is a wiki no no. *snip*. 24*

Ok, items #1 through #16 above have been up for discussion awhile now and there does not seem to be much objection or many contrary facts presented that would preclude editing them directly into the article at this point. Birthday is corrected and its time to revist Dr. Ruckman's article. One cannot take seriously any future objections by arbusto, jzg, and joshua if this opportunity to be heard is ignored. 24* 02:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Misleading statement concerning "details" on PBI

This entry currently says that "deatils" about the Pensacola Bible Institute are not available. It has been clearly pointed out to the persons who insist on lording over the page and that such details are available and the exact manner in which they are avaialble. Currently, the justifications for retaining the misleading statement are 1. No, we will not allow contact information to appear (something no one has asked for) and 2. Arbustoo bets no one ever uses the contact information (an explanation that deserves no analysis). It would appear that the only explanation for the insistence on retaining the misleading statement is a POV that excludes even the possibility of being reasonable or honest. Otherwise, I am all ears. Why make Wiki entires a repository of misinformation? PSRuckman

Actually it states the "details" (not "deatils" as you wrote) are "sketchy." Wow, so if you contact a school they might answer your questions. That is so important we should post that on every school page in wikipedia./Sarcasm. Such a claim doesn't need to be included because it is assumed and goes without saying.

But I agree with Ruckman that the manner of contact information should be included. Mainly that the address is a PO Box. That really shows that this unaccredited school founded decades ago by an unaccredited professor is at least a questionable "institution." Arbusto 19:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

• Actucall Arbustooooo, I am STILL waiting for you to be logically consistent in your editing. Why have you not yet put the University in Bob Jones University in quotation marks? PSRuckman

Ar* what's your source for the contention that the Bible school is a hoax and does not exist? Seems your assertion is sort of "sketchy" since you are the first & only person to make it. By the way, do you also think that the Billy Graham Training Center http://www.billygraham.org/Contact_MailingPhoneInfo.asp - gasp! a PO Box in Ashville, NC!! - do you think this is also a hoax? How many other po box hoaxes have you uncovered in your "sort'a sketchy" investigative career? 24*

That link you supplied DOES HAVE A STREET ADDRESS listed along with PO Boxes! In fact, its 1 Billy Graham Parkway. You are comparing Billy Graham's schools to Peter Ruckman? HAHAHAHA. Also Graham has a website with details and he has STREET ADDRESSES in Canada and Germany. Lastly, information about Graham's schools are plentiful http://www.billygraham.org/SOE_Index.asp, not vague. Yet, the PO Box (many schools have PO Boxes for mail along with street addresses) alone doesn't make Ruckman's "institute" questionable it a combination of factors. Arbusto 05:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

• Give it up 24.* You could draw 5,000 comparisons and Arbustooooooo would drag you down to "Billy starts with a B and Peter starts with a P." PSRuckman

Hola senior A*-o: Billy's school in Ashville does NOT have an address given, and I see only "sketchy" information *snip* I think this exchange is sufficient to prove *snip* POV is causing angst whenever the article is modified to included unbiased information. 24*

"The Cove Camp is a ministry of the Billy Graham Training Center, located on 1,500 acres in the Blue Ridge Mountains just outside of Asheville, North Carolina."[7] A 1,500 acre PO Box is a very big PO Box and the information is far from vague. How come you have to give us a poor comparison? If you have facts about this Ruckman's "institute" provide them. Arbusto 21:40, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Please read WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. Making comments such as the above are unproductive, against wikipedia rules and make people less inclined to listen to you. Also, you may want to take a look at Arbustoo contribution list to Wikipedia here: [8] it is hard to see that as the contrib list of an "antiruckman crusader" unless he happens to spend 99% of his time not crusading. JoshuaZ 23:05, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

This is discussion section, and you are trying to shut me up by your constant accusations of NPA / CIVIL, etc. Such is nothing but *snip* attempt to stop discussion. It is unproductive and frankly tiresome. Stop whining *snip* about my comments. You are not being civil to me. Stop it. WP:AGF When POV appears in A*'s comments and discussions he opens wide the door for those comments to be further commented upon. *snip* 24*

24*, I will not see Joshua attacked. Please be civil. Arbustoo's reply was also more terse than it could have been, but you have to admit that comparing Ruckman with Billy Graham is absurd. Do you really think that Ruckman could fill Wembley Stadium? Billy Graham drew crowds usually seen only for the gods of Rock! Just zis Guy you know? 22:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

"Absurd?" How rude and condescending of you JzG. A clear violation of civility. But, speaking of that, how about the rigorous argumentation ... A: If you drive a car, you are a monkey. 24: Billy Graham drives a car and he is not a monkey. A: You are comparing yourself to Billy Graham HO HO HA HA LOL LOL. ... I mean really. PSRuckman

Yes, absurd. Billy Graham came to London and drew a crowd of 120,000 in Wembley Statium. When I saw Queen there on their final tour there were fewer in the audience than that. Do you genuinely believe that Ruckman would draw a crowd of that size in a foreign country? Really? Just zis Guy you know? 09:56, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, if the point of comparison had anything to do with crowds on a single day, you might have something there. Bad news is, that has nothing to do with anything. Do you genuinely believe it does? Really? Try reading again, real slow. And see if you can convince yourself that no one - except you - compared the two in terms of stadium shows. Hint: Look for mention of a "P.O.Box" PSRuckman

Let's see, Billy Graham gets to have a PO Box for his little institute, but anybody else that does so is probably a fraud. Of course Dr. Ruckman does not have all men speaking well of him Luke6:26, could this have something to do with it? His (PSR) soul-winning includes over 91 jails, rather than 91 stadium-busting super-extravaganzas of Christian enterainment, and he failed to hob-nob with the high and mighty. Sorry, Dr. Ruckman, your PO Box is just too "sketchy" for the self-appointed accreditation committee to countenance. 24* 02:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

By the way, it's called "Institute" not "college" or "university" - so what is the need to pile on regarding nonaccreditation? This seems to be a hobby horse and overkill. One mention is plenty, the rest needs to be deleted. The allegations of "vagueness" (new word for "sketchy") is continuing POV against PBI and this sentece should be removed. The fact is it is a private institute, not public. The allegations of vagueness and lack of a website cast the instite's privacy in an unnecessarily suspicious light. 24* 02:11, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Edits

An unsupported edit by JzG was just made, without submitting it to discussion first, that asserts that Dr. Ruckman hold the King James Bible as the only accectable English Bible. Dr. Ruckman's position is more complicated than that. Dr. Ruckman has said that the line of TR versions in English prior to the 1611 King James where also valid for their time (i.e., Wycliff's, the Geneva, etc.). In addition he has stated more than once that a person can learn the gospel and "get saved" by gleaning the truth from modern Bible versions (despite the wreck they make of it), even a JW Bible. His critics have not bothered to appreciated or understand the nuances here. However, I agree that he believes it is the only "acceptable" version for today's english speaker, and is itself (due to divine miricle) the "final authority". 24* 01:44, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Is it the King James Best Movement, or the King James Only Movement? And actually I was reverting an "unsupported edit" made "without submitting it to discussion first" by an anonymous editor [9]. Just zis Guy you know? 10:16, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

A google search on Pensacola Bible Institute links to several hundred gradutes who are pastors, authors, missionaries, etc. A section of "Famous Graduates" for PBI might be in order. 24* 03:02, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

If they have Wikipedia articles. Just zis Guy you know? 10:16, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

24* and Ruckman you discussed your edits before. They were denied please do not make any more edits unless approved by a consensus. Arbusto 22:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Nice try, Arbusto, but it does not fly. Please do not hide your POV edits as minor changes. PSRuckman

PSRuckman, please do not blank your talk page. It is an important record of what has been raised with you. If you wish to clear the space simply archive it instead. --Davril2020 20:20, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I am not familiar with that option, but I'll give it look. I was primarily responding to the note at the bottom which suggested that it (the file) was too long. In addition, it made sense to adopt Arbusto's broad definition of "vandalism" and recongize that it simply became a place for false accusations and smearing. Perhaps you can share with me how I can observe the "important record" of "what has been raised" with Arbusto. PSRuckman

Sure, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page JoshuaZ 04:39, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Where is Arbusto's archive? PSRuckman

page move???

Even though the College he attained his doctorate at is unacreditated does not mean he does not deserver the tile of Dr. He studied under philosophy and deserves the title he worked very hard for

could someone please revert this pagemove, this is just plain ridiculous--64.12.116.133 23:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

• you think he 'deserves' the title of doctor? even though he isn't one? ok, in that case please move User:64.12.116.133 to Doctor:64.12.116.133, I too feel that I 'deserve' an unearned title--64.12.116.133 23:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
• Well, write a dissertation, defend it, and have people recogize you by that title for 40 years and we will think about it. 172.144.58.234 12:32, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

"doctor"

article seems to indicate that he is not a doctor of anything, yet it refers to him as Dr.Peter Ruckman? why, other than the fact that he's been editing his own article, does it do that?--64.12.116.133 00:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

• Is there some sort of a source for him being a doctor? other than wikipedia itself? Even his own website claims that he has a Bachelor of Arts, other than in self-reference, where does the "dr." come from?--64.12.116.133 01:10, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
• I am not certain 64.12.116.133 should be allowed to suggest that Ruckman is editing his own article. There is a better than average chance the topic of the article doesn't even know the article exists and could hardly care less. The man doesn't even use a computer! Despite the fact that quite some effort has been put into editing the article by JzG, Arbusto, Arbustoo, JoshuaZ and others, 64.12.116.133 comes out of nowhere and destroys the work. Time for integrity folks. 172.132.37.135 19:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

"reconized in the state of South Carolina as a doctor of philosphy"

Even his own website doesn't try to claim this--64.12.116.133 01:43, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and furthermore, we have had extensive discussions on this page and on User Talk:PSRuckman about whether or not he should have the honorific "Dr." The consensus is that he should not. A good check is to look at the article on Albert Einstein and note how many times he is given the title. JoshuaZ 01:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the addition of the block quote to slip in the dr. title, according to MOS:BIO-wikipedia style manual, even if he did have an accredited degree, you can't use the title unless he is a medical doctor. But moreover, I don't care that his personal website deceives readers by calling himself a dr. that unneeded quote is spam added to circumvent consensus. He needs to go and complete an accredited med. school to add the title. Arbusto 01:50, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

The term "medical doctor" is incorrectly used instead of "physician" (with a doctor's degree). - Curt

Reference to pdf file

When I try to bring up the third reference (the pdf linking to www.dbts.edu), it comes back with "There were errors processing your request:

   * The countrycode of your domain is unknown.

Please correct your input"

Could somebody else check this to make sure it isn't just my connection. Thanks Mgroop 23:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Nobody has verified this link, so I am going to assume that it is bad. I am going to remove the statement and the reference. If anyone can find a working reference, please go ahead a reinsert the statement.Mgroop 15:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Style

I'v tried to smooth out the grammar and syntax of this biography. I'm sure I've stepped on some toes in the process. So go back at it, gentlemen. Just try to be grammatical. --John Foxe 19:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Grammar and syntax should not offend any intelligent or fair-minded person. On the other hand, the POV and disregard of previous work on this article - obtained after elaborate discussion - is annoying. It is well known that PSR was a close, personal friend of Bob Jones Sr. Go to any BJU web site or blog anywhere and ask anyone. It is as well known as the fact that the man is an artist. Thus, by deleting the interesting and relevent information you are only showing that you are not editing in good-faith OR that you are exceptionally uninformed about this topic and should honestly limit yourself to editing grammar and syntax. Wiki competitors certainly thank you for reducing the quality of this product.

Sorry. I need a citation. If it has no citation, I don't believe it.--John Foxe 21:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Great, will you allow me to now remove everything from the article that does not have citation? Let's do this thing.

I'd be happy to have you remove everything that's undocumented. We should make an article like this one stand as firmly on four feet as we can.

And how about getting a photograph of Dr. Ruckman?--John Foxe 23:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Great, the assertion that he is "best" known for this or that is undocumented. Why do you insist in re-inserting it? Or, re-insert it with a reference which suggests that it is even half-way accurate.

In addition, you are also removing an edit which corrects a statement that is both false and undocumented. There is no citation provided either. Ruckman's view regarding the KJV are limited to English speaking persons. Is it even really possible that you do not know that? The tradition here is to assume good faith, but you are making that very difficult. Please allow the correction of the false and undocumented statement.

You edited before you read my changes. I had left "English speakers" there. Even so, this statement should be documented.

There's nothing out of place with White's critique where it should be, in the body of the article. You haven't argued it isn't true, and the quotations you allowed to remain give good evidence that it is. --John Foxe 10:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

That is fine. I just want to document that you are forcing a POV in the article. And you are doing just fine. Whether I argue what you are forcing in the article is true or not makes no difference to you whatsoever, so there is no reason to offer that up in bad faith. Ruckman calls Custer a liar (in the passage you selected), for example, because Custer's makes false claims regarding Ruckman's divorce (which can be easily seen by looking at public records). Ruckman's book produced the records to document Custer was a liar. Do you care? Of course not. Too busy cheerleading. Second, I did not "allow" the statements to stand so much as I understood, in advance, that you have a fanatical interest in imposing your view and have more time on your hands, so there is no need to try too hard to clean up after you. Finally, I am sorry that you are depressed that Ruckman was a friend of Jones, Sr. Maybe you can paint the color of the sky in your world some other way.

If you wish to make this a stronger article by providing additional citations and documented material, I will be glad to help.--John Foxe 19:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If you decide to make it less POV and more factual, let me know. You have not documented that Custer is a "frequent" _target. You have only asserted it. Please document it or allow language that is more accurate. I would be happy to assist you in making it less silly and fanatical.

I'm completely satisfied with the changes that you've made.--John Foxe 11:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Please do not edit war or remove items without providing any justification. At least pretend to be fair and reasonable. You have insisted (against request) on taking the time to force POV into this entry. You have also rejected reasonable alternatives 1) putting POV in an "opinion" section or 2) allowing points of view other than your own - or the one's you want to allow. Of course, removing POV altogether would be the ideal thing, but I well understand you zeal to bias the entry.

Please follow Wikipedia rules

Please remember to sign your posts using four tildes.--John Foxe 19:10, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

John Foxe, Please remember not to edit war. In several instances, you have made changes without offering any justification whatsoever. In each instance, you have edited material cosistent with the standards that you have used to force material into the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.135.216.22 (talk • contribs)

John Foxe, Please remember that Wikipedia is not a place for you to force POV in articles. If you insist on forcing POV into an article, consider categorizing it as "opinion" or allowing others to trash the article with their opinion as well. In other words, be a little less clumsy about concealing your bias.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.135.216.22 (talk • contribs)

Film scripts

I am highly suspicious of this sentence which I've removed: "During his studies at BJU, he produced two screen plays for "nationally acclaimed Christian films."Holland (Michigan) Evening Sentinel, Aug. 22, 1958; Jan. 5 and Dec. 30, 1960 (see "Unusual Films" at Bob Jones University).

There were no major BJU films produced during this period, and the editor who posted this information has provided no names for these screen plays. And why the citation to an obscure Michigan newspaper from the 1950s? Certainly the editor must have taken this information from a secondary source.--John Foxe 16:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the "obscure" (meaning one you are ignorant of) public newspaper is/should not be credited as much as an obscure partisan like James White. Who is he anyway? If he is someone worth citing in such a lenghty manner, why is there not Wiki entry for him? I am suspicious that such a virtual unknown receives so much attention in this entry. Are you his dad? brother in law? what? I am assuming you did no research - standard - before you did the edit war routine. One of the films you were unable to discover was the first to win all four major awards from the National Evangelical Film Foudation. The United Film Producers Association selected it to represent in Cannes. Another film you could not find was also filmed for and selected as a representative at Cannes. Please consider lifting the cloud of laziness and ignorance you are imposing from this entry. It can't be normal that it means so much to you.

I've reverted part of your edit since you took out part of Ruckman's education. Other than that, I'm inclined to agree. JoshuaZ 16:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Oops, sorry. That was simple carelessness. Thanks for catching that so quickly, Joshua.--John Foxe 19:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)