Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language

July 28

Non-English Speech Accent Archive?

One of my favorite linguistic sites is The Speech Accent Archive, but it is only in English. Is there another site that catalogs accents of languages other than English? I would really like to see where non-natives mispronounce languages so that I can refine my own speaking. HYENASTE 00:25, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this is exactly what you're looking for, but this site has a huge archive of various regional pronounciations of Swedish. -Elmer Clark 01:26, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't speak English

I'm curious about something (I'm not actually in this situation). Suppose authorities of some sort are interrogating some person. It seems that this person doesn't speak English and it seems that he doesn't speak any known language, or at least not any language that they can find find a translator for. They suspect that this person is faking it, i.e. they understand perfectly well the words 'where did you hide the body/gold/secret microfilm etc'. What techniques are available to test this person? --Duomillia 03:37, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

One option is to keep them locked up for 55 years. I don't think it's a good option, but it's been tried. --Reuben 04:37, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have no experience in this of course, but naturally certain language is likely to produce an emotional reaction if it is understood.--Pharos 04:43, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Quickest method: In the U.S. you can obtain a printout from the phone company that has one sentence repeated in about 50 different languages. The sentence is "Point to your language and an interpreter will be called." You then dial the number printed on the card and request translation services for that language. The languages are grouped by type (Asian, Hispanic, Arabic, etc.) so you can direct the person's attention to the most likely area for them to spot their own language. Something of that sort could be done. Of course, the person could pretend to be illiterate, in which case the authorities would then have to get spoken translations of a sentence. Even then, it is possible the suspect really is from a small, remote part of the world and speaks only one rare language.

Second option: If the unspecified 'authorities' were determined enough, and it was important enough to get this person to talk (thinking spy story, here), then tortue would be certain to get the suspect to make a sincere attempt to communicate with the torturer. Even then they may find that the person, under the most extreme conditions, still doesn't speak any language they can identify and that they likely just tortured an innocent person. The torture needn't be violent -- extreme thirst will force a person into survival mode.

Actually, causing extreme thrist is a form of violence. A.Z. 20:02, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Third option: The most time consuming option is to hand the person pen and paper and simply communicate through pantomime that you want the person to write. It doesn't matter what he writes. Just have him fill page after page with written words. Although it wouldn't identify the language used, an analysis of the writing can determine whether or not it is a real language. Rules for sentence structure, repeated short words (articles equivalent to "the", "it", etc.) and rules for spelling should be apparent. If the writing appears completely random, then it is likely not a real language and the authorities would at least have enough evidence to be able to charge the person with obstruction of justice and interfering with an investigation. 152.16.188.107 05:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

You may also be interested in reading Linguistics, Speech recognition, Language model, Corpus linguistics and Linguistic typology. 152.16.188.107 06:25, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Hook the person up to a brain scanner, then start talking to the person. If s/he understands, then certain parts of the brain will show activity. Clarityfiend 07:31, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

If you are Catherine Banning simply chat with them in different languages and try and make them laugh. Lanfear's Bane

Why, you could just let him go! Adam Bishop 03:47, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Charades? Cyta 07:51, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Look, it's not going to work, Alberto Gonzales will never talk. Gzuckier 17:51, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you could release him, as the King of (AFAIK) did to King David in the Bible, having previously kept him prisoner. King David simply acted insane, and his captors complained they had enough mad men, so David didn't help matters.martianlostinspace 23:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

July 29

Translation request - Bulgarian to English

I have a Bulgarian text that needs to be translated. I don't know how to type in cyrillic, but here's a rough transliteration: zdraveto e stastie 74.140.170.112 00:53, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

The easiest way to type using the Cyrillic alphabet is to pick the appropriate Cyrillic letters from the big list of characters that appears under the Save button when you edit. StuRat 01:08, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Judging by your transliteration, it probably says the health and happiness. I can check it again if you type it in Cyrillic letters. —Daniel Šebesta {chat | contribs} 09:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Its says "health is happiness" in Bulgarian. -K. Weigand

Dictionary of Old English Corpus

Could anyone with access to UMich DOE Corpus at [1] please verify whether the text at the bottom of Image:Caslon-schriftmusterblatt.jpeg (looks like "Ða he da mid grimmum fwinglum & tintregum wæced wæs & he ealle þa witu ðe him man dyde geþyldelice & gefeonde sor dritne abær ar" to me) is taken from the Old English translation of Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum? If not, then where is it from? --tyomitch 06:36, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Bede,I.7 EETS p.36 line 33; the d in da should be crossed, and it should have swinglum, for Drihtne; the last word (aræfnde) is incomplete. I believe the sentence is the one Wikisource translates "He, being most cruelly tortured, bore the same patiently, or rather joyfully, for our Lord's sake.". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:37, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your help! I'm going to add that citation to the image description page. --tyomitch 05:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Logo

why dont you correct your spelling mistake in your logo?

Assuming you mean the "Devanagari (non-)character", have a look at the replies to July 12's question. ---Sluzzelin talk 14:45, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Regression -statistics

How does the word regression work in the sentence below, with respect to 'onto'. Is it correct, or should it be something like regressing 'with respect to', or regressing 'by', or 'for' ...?

"Regressing health-related quality of life onto age, gender, adherence to medical advice, and overall autonomous- and controlled motivation resulted in regression models that were not significantly different than the H0 model"

Thanks if you can help...

This is a question about mathematical jargon, so I suggest asking on the math reference desk. --Anonymous, July 29, 2007, 19:39 (UTC).

Searching for similar jargon finds on google "However, the results of regressing health-related quality of life (PCS scores) against scores of physical function revealed some sex-specific differences...", so there is precedent for against; but it would be preferable to recast the sentence into English. Perhaps, "Controlling for [list of factors; what does "autonomous- and controlled motivation" mean?] did not signficantly change the H0 model"? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:46, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

It's already English, and it's already correct. Please have a look at regression analysis. --Kjoonlee 22:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, to be fair, it's specialized jargon despite being English, so here's a paraphrase. Performing regression analysis between "quality of life" and "age, gender, adherence to medical advice, and overall autonomous- and controlled motivation" gave results that were not much different from the h0 model. The null hypothesis is usually the opposite of what you want to prove. You want to reject the null hypothesis, and you do that by showing that the possibility of your results being pure chance (the p-value) is close to zero. But in this case, the results were not significantly different from the null hypothesis being true, so there were insufficient grounds to suppose that age/gender/etc. really make a difference in the quality of life. --Kjoonlee 22:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

John Whitgift's Latin Name?

John Whitgift was Archbishop of Canterbury from 1583 to 1604. Would he have used Latin in his everyday life (or at least for "official" writings)? More to the point, would he have had a Latinized version of his name for such usage? How would I go about finding the name out, if it existed?

Thanks. Daniel (‽) 21:12, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

As Archbishop, he would have signed himself Joannes Cant., for Cantuarius; most of his writings appear to be in English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:48, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

As Rowan Williams signs himself as Rowan Cantuar, I would have thought Joannes Cantuar would have been used. — Gareth Hughes 00:14, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

That's a short-form of Cantuaria (Canterbury) or Cantuariensis (the adjective form, "the guy from Canterbury"). Is Cantuarius a form of Canterbury too? I thought it was always -ia (but the short-form was used so exclusively that I doubt anyone even remembered the original Latin form!). Adam Bishop 08:08, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

IIRC Cantuarius is the adjective, "from Canterbury", masculine to agree with the name. The conventional abbreviation changed in the eighteenth century, after an epigram about the appropriateness of one Archbishop signing himself as John Cant, in the sense of "hypocritical talk". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:21, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Am I right in concluding that he would have Latinized "John" to "Joannes" and followed it with the Latin for "of Canterbury", but would have left "Whitgift" alone, as it would not be used in these circumstances? Thanks. Daniel (‽) 17:12, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, bishops, royals and peers traditionally sign with their Christian name followed by their see/estate/title. Diocesan bishops of the Church of England, and some other churches, continue to sign in this way — e.g. Thomas Dunelm, John Oxon and David Sarum. I haven't seen modern-day bishops latinise their Christian names as weel, though. — Gareth Hughes 15:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Hebrew possessive suffixes

I really hope there's someone here who knows Hebrew. I'm looking at a table of possessive suffixes in a learner's text (which uses סוּס as an example noun), and I have two questions. 1) How do you pronounce the forms that they give meaning "his (male) horses", סוּסיו (kamatz under the second samekh), and "his (female) horses", סוּסוֹתיו (kamatz under the tav)? It seems as if they'd be "susaiv" and "susotaiv", but that seems weird to me because vav was originally a semivowel, and I can't imagine a single syllable ending in two semivowels, "aiw". Am I missing something here? 2) The table says that "his horse" is סוּסוֹ, "suso", but then earlier in the book it says that "his father" is אביו, "aviv". Why isn't it אבוֹ, "avo"? --Lazar Taxon 22:18, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

The third person singular masculine possessive endings for plural nouns (like סוסיו "his horses") are pronounced -av (or in Biblical Hebrew, -aw). The spelling is just a little irregular. The yod is there because in an even earlier form of the language, before Biblical Hebrew, the ending was pronounced -ayo, but by the time of Biblical Hebrew the yod was no longer pronounced and the ending became -aw. סוסיו is pronounced "susaw" (modern susav). The same applies in the feminine: סוסותיו "susotaw" (modern susotav). The form אביו "aviw" (modern aviv) is just an irregularity. The only other word that uses -iv in the singular that I can think of is אחיו "achiw" (modern achiv) "his brother". Macnas 22:46, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation! --Lazar Taxon 00:02, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I just wanted to point out that it looks funny in this font. Gzuckier 17:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

That might be only on your computer. It will depend on what fonts you have installed. --Reuben 22:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Hebrew words needed

(apologies for the double posting but I'm new to wikipedia)

I'm trying to get the hebrew writing for Zillah and Zara. Could someone please post them?

Mooji 23:02, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

The names? As they appear in the Bible they are צִלָּה (Tzilah) and זֶרַח (Zerach). Macnas 23:15, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

thanks - my flatmate intends to get them tattooed on each wrist. I understand that they mean shadow and sunrise (?) Are the words above reflective of these meanings or has she got it totally wrong?

Mooji 02:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, those are where the names come from originally. The actual nouns that they come from are צל (tzel) "shadow" and זריחה (zerichah) "sunrise". Macnas 04:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Warning. It is an unfortunately common occurrence that a tattoo artist, working with characters in a writing system they are not familiar with, produces a result that looks fine to them, but is actually not. For example, for Hebrew, ה and ח are different characters, and not variants. I further think – but I'm not an expert in Hebrew tattoos – that, normally, one would leave out the vowel points.  --Lambiam 16:08, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

July 30

What would be the adjective for the following feeling?

I have asked many people this question previously, yet none seem to know... and that is the feeling one feels when, say, someone tells a 'joke' which isn't funny at all, though it is meant to be... how does one describe such a 'um...o...k...' feeling? Thanks!

The word that jumps to mind is "nonplussed". +ILike2BeAnonymous 08:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

This smacks of insincere politeness, like when you laugh politely but don't mean it. The closest word I can think of for this behaviour is 'ingratiating' Sandman30s 12:41, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd go with "bemused". --TotoBaggins 14:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Some of the answers seem to be describing the social action rather than the internal feeling, which might be described as disillusionment, letdown or possibly dismay --JAXHERE | ^Talk 15:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I would go with "skeptical", since 'um...o...k...' doesn't imply distress, or trying to please the other person, but rather a sort of conditional acceptance. --Śiva 16:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

In colloquial (not literary) Korean, jokes that aren't funny at all are described using the descriptive verb "썰렁하다". 썰렁한 이야기: story which is not funny. It doesn't matter if it's meant to be funny or not, 썰렁함 (the state of being 썰렁) is up to the listener to decide. --Kjoonlee 17:34, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Somewhat related ... the event is anticlimactic. (JosephASpadaro 19:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC))

"Ambivalent" could possibly work, or maybe "equivocal". 38.112.225.84 05:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It's a good question, because though many of the answers have got close, IMHO I don't think anyone's actually hit it on the head - maybe we need to borrow the Korean term - make it part of the vernacular? Adambrowne666

Heh. 썰렁하다 means (literally) chilly. --Kjoonlee 20:01, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

So, in this case, we can rightfully say "The joke was met with a chilly reception" ... or "a lukewarm reception" ... no? (Joseph A. Spadaro 02:48, 4 August 2007 (UTC))

Thanks - so how do I say it, can you transcribe it in Latin letters for me? Adambrowne666 12:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

썰렁하다 (sseolleonghada /s͈ʌllʌŋhada/) 썰렁한 (sseolleonghan /s͈ʌllʌŋhan/) 썰렁함 (sseolleongham /s͈ʌllʌŋham/). You can look at RR and IPA chart for English for help on pronunciation, but to give you a hint, it sounds roughly like "hull lung" but with an /s/ sound, and a slight stress on the first syllable. My code-switching intuition tells me that I'd use it like:

That's the most 썰렁 story I've ever heard.

--Kjoonlee 16:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Excellent - I might try and start using it - thanks - it's a word the language needs... Adambrowne666 04:42, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

etymology of Canada

Has anyone heard the posited etymology of the word Canada as coming from the Spanish, a que nada, meaning something like 'here is nothing'? It's pretty dodgy, I know, and doesn't get a look-in at Canada, but I'm curious how widely it is now or ever was accepted as the true origin of the word, and who first proposed it. Thanks Adambrowne666 09:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

• Well, aquí nada or acá nada would both mean "here nothing" in Spanish, but frankly it's a pretty ridiculous theory. In any case, the only accepted theory (which has a great deal of evidence) these days is that it comes from the Laurentian word for "town" or "settlement" (compare Mohawk kaná:ta’). I don't know the history of theories about Canada's name, but I'd be surprised if this was ever more than a fringe theory by one or two people. I was going to suggest looking at Canada's name, but it basically says the same thing as Canada--it used to mention some other theories though. Also there's this. --Miskwito 15:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I heard that from some Americans once...it seemed to be well-known to them, but I had never heard it before. We know the ka-na-ta one better because of the Heritage Minute about it ("I know this language and this nation's name is ka-na-ta!" "But I'm sure he means the houses, the village!"), and I guess because there is an actual town called Kanata. Adam Bishop 16:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks very much, both of you - thanks especially, Miskwito, for the link to the old Canada page, very useful. I came across the theory in an Australian book of etymologies called A PAGEANT OF WORDS, by Kevin Kennedy, published in the 70s. Adambrowne666 22:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

For general interest, see Certain Persistent Errors in Geography by Henry Gannett in Bulletin of the American Geographical Society, Vol. 33, No. 3 (1901). There certainly are places whose names have arisen from "Nothing there" or even "I don't know" in the local language. Xn4 11:19, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Brazilian Ministry of Sport Orlando Silva speaking at press conferencea

Question:

At the 2007 Pan American Games in Brazil, Minister of Sport, Orlando Silva is seen in photos, news, speaking to press, audiences, in the US, Canada and abroad in addition to Rio de Janeiro.

Does anyone know if he requires an interpreter (English or Spanish) in his interviews with the press, i.e. the Canadian sport Minister, ambassadors or other ministers from other countries?

16:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)16:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)~ AnnickSweden

Comparison

a comparision between A.J.Cronin's An Irish Rose andHatter's Castle —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Latedu (talk • contribs) 13:20, July 30, 2007 (UTC) – Please sign your posts!

Home alone

What's most normal in English, to say "I'm home alone" or "I'm alone at home"? --Taraborn 14:09, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Both are pretty normal. Recury 14:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

However, the former makes one think of the film, whereas the latter doesn't, so there is a slight difference.--Śiva 16:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Great. Thank you very much. --Taraborn 16:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I would also suggest that "I'm home alone" has more of a connotation of vulnerability or fear, particularly for an unsupervised child, while "I'm alone at home" seems more like a simple statement of fact. I think that this sense predates the film.jeffjon 17:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

"I'm alone" has a connotation (in British English) of loneliness. "I'm (at home) on my own" is more usual.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 18:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. --Taraborn 21:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I would say 'I'm at home by myself'. — Gareth Hughes 00:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The movie was called that because the phrase was fairly common before that. I think I would always say "I'm home alone," and I can't recall ever hearing or reading the other option. "Alone at home" sounds like it is at best an inferior option and at worst a hypercorrection. This is either because "home alone" is an idiomatic set phrase or because of the placement in the other option of the prepositional phrase after the adjective in a somewhat unnatural construction, I think. "I'm alone" and "I'm at home" are both okay, since one is an adjective describing the subject and the other is a prepositional phrase of location, but together they don't work (for me) except as "I'm home alone," with the "alone" acting as an phrasal modifier/adverb there. It may also have to do with the fact that in "alone at home," both seem to be modifying the subject separately but are not parallel (both adjectives, for example) or separated by "and" or at least a comma, while "home alone" has them modifying different things as they should be when adjacent and unseparated. This is all my theory, of course. Either way, my American ear definitely prefers "home alone." --Cromwellt|talk|contribs 06:46, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Need to understand Russian to understand source on 1897 census in Lithuania

Hello,

I was reading Ethnic history of the region of Vilnius. In that article, the ethnic make-up of Vilnius and the Vilno governate (=roughly the modern Lithuania) are given for several periods of time. Many of those tables gives percentages but not the total, which is a shame. Only one source listed there is actually available on the internet, and that's the Russian 1897 census. Both the table giving the results of census in the city and the one giving the results for all of Lithuania, link to the same page,this one [2]. Being bold, I seem to conclude that the total number of people living in the governate was 1591207. But what about the city of Vilnius? Are the results available on that same website as well? I only understand the Cyrillic alphabet, so I'm afraid I need the help of someone with some knowledge of the Russian language . Thanks,Evilbu 19:06, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The page you linked to is for Vilenskaya, which presumably means Vilenskaya gubernia. There's also one for Vilenskaya (in cities) here: [3]. That presumably includes any other urban areas as well as the city of Vilnius. Perhaps that's what was used in the Wikipedia page for the city stats. --Reuben 22:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, but something is not quite right then. I assume "Великорусский" means "Russians". I guess so, because the Governate page gave me a 78623/1591207 ratio for "Великорусский", which is 4.9%, and which is also exactly what the Wikipedia article gives us.

However, doing the same thing with the numbers on the page you gave me, I get 36178/198007 for "Великорусский" in the city, or 18.2%, while the Wikipedia article says 20.9%

To make matter more complicated, assuming that "Белорусский" means Belarussians, I get 15057/198007 for the Belarussians in the city, which is 7.6%, while the article says it's 4.3%? What have I messed up? Am I misinterpreting the Russian?Evilbu 01:53, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

"Великорусский" is Russian (see Great Russian language), and "Малорусский" is Ukrainian [or was, once]. Here are some others (which you've probably guessed) from the first page you linked. The top reads "Language or language group" (twice), then Dialect, Men, Women, Both Genders. Along the left: Polish, Other Slavic languages, Lithuanio-Latvian dialects, Romance languages, German, Other Germanic languages, Jewish, South Caucasian dialects, Other Indo-European dialects, Dialects of the Caucusus mountains, Finnish dialects, Turko-Mongol dialects (twice), Mongolo-Buryat dialects (?), Dialects of other Northern tribes, languages of the [cultural people? dialects?] of the Far East, other languages and dialects, people not indicating their first language, TOTAL.

Note that "language group" may not be used the same way we would (see the "Jewish" group). You can probably translate most language names with Google (try including "wiki" in the search string; if you find a ru.wikipedia.org page, check the interwiki links). Tesseran 03:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Evilbu, your interpretation is correct. I don't know where the stats in the article are coming from. The drop down menu in the web page doesn't seem to have an entry for the city of Vilnius specifically (I think I would recognize the names it might be under). --Reuben 04:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay thanks everyone. I made some changes now, and I wrote something about it on the Talk Page, as you can see here :[4].Evilbu 15:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

International Grammar Symbols?

Hello. Is there an international set of grammar symbols in sentence analysis? If yes, are bare subjects underlined? Are bare predicates wavy underlined? Are adjectives, subordinate adjective clauses, adjective phrases, prepositional adjective phrases, and the like in round brackets? Are adverbs, prepositional adverb phrases, subordinate adverb clauses, adverb phrases, and the like in square brackets? Are subordinate noun clauses in triangular brackets? Are nouns of direct address squared altogether? Are direct objects double underlined? Are indirect objects triple underlined? Thanks in advance. --Mayfare 22:06, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard of such a system. Where did you find the conventions you have just described? --Śiva 02:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

My Canadian English teacher taught me this. Perhaps, these conventions are only locally recognized. --Mayfare 14:17, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Typography

Where can I find information about the page layout and typographical conventions used in traditional Chinese books? Likewise for pre-19th-century French books. --Śiva 22:21, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

For the Chinese part, I'm not sure what exactly you're looking for, but I may be able to answer you if you want to know some particular detail. Relevant articles are horizontal and vertical writing in East Asian scripts, history of typography in East Asia, and history of western typography. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 01:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

More specifically (or is it generally?), what I'm looking for is information about traditional East Asian book design-- the sort of information I would need if I wanted to make a book that looks like it comes from, say, Song-dynasty China. There seems to be very little information of this nature on Wikipedia. --Śiva 02:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I see. Of course there's a great number of Chinese books which deal with this topic, but I can't think of any English works or sites which talk about that. Maybe I'll write the article later ... not an easy task, though. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 03:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

A lot of conventions aren't really written down or codified. Your best bet would be to find some exemplars of the style you're looking for and model your design on those. It's worth noting that there are many archaic conventions in typography which are difficult, at best, to replicate with modern technology (e.g., the old convention of printing the first word of the next page on a slug line at the bottom of the page). 65.91.98.102 18:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

In that case, where would I find scans of old Chinese books? --Śiva 23:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

July 31

so long

Where does the term "so long", used as a synonym for goodbye come from? --JAXHERE | ^Talk 14:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Here is the entry from the Online Etymology Dictionary. Perhaps German or Scandinavian or even Hebrew in origin. --LarryMac | Talk 14:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

antonym for greeting

I can't seem to find a single English word which expresses the opposite of greeting, to descibe what we do when we say goodbye. Any ideas? --JAXHERE | ^Talk 14:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Farewell. --Mayfare 14:19, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The OED entry I just linked in the question above has a quoted reference to "so long" being "[a] salutation of parting", which is, I suppose, a rather wordy antonym for "greeting". --LarryMac | Talk 14:29, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course, not every concept has a single English word to express it, and many things don't strictly speaking have an opposite. Xn4 11:03, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm with Mayfare on this one: Farewell is a good example, and can be used in a similar way: "I gave him my farewell." I think that the word "goodbye" works also: "We said our goodbyes." --Cromwellt|talk|contribs 07:06, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Valediction is probably the closest (literally "Goodbye-saying"). AndrewWTaylor 13:48, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Punctuation

Which is correct: (a) Hi, Mary: Hello, Mary:

   or

(b) Hi Mary: Hello, Mary:

Your examples are not clear. Is this a conversation between two people both called Mary? Or a variety of different salutations, like at the start of an email? Trying to give an answer, if you're asking about the correctness of the comma between the words "Hi" or "Hello" and the person's name, I would say it doesn't much matter. To have the comma in would be rather more formal, and as such would fit with "hello" rather better than it would with "hi". --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The comma is normal, but I don't understand the purpose of the colon, which would be better replaced with a full stop. But why the repetition? More context would help.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 15:31, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps he means the second part ("Hello, Mary") as a translation of what he is trying to say (ie he wants to know the difference between "Hi, Mary" and "Hi Mary", both of which should mean the same as "Hello, Mary"). Daniel (‽) 17:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Kosovo/Kosovar/Kosovan

There's a discussion ongoing at Talk:Kosovo#Kosovo:_terminology as to what's the correct and most common adjective in use for Kosovo; opinions from people interested in linguistics would be highly welcome. Thanks! —Nightstallion 16:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on either Serbian or Albanian, but this is what I understand. 'Kosovo' (Косово) is a Serbian name, meaning 'of the blackbird(s)'. It is shortened form of 'Kosovo polje' (Косово поље), meaning 'plain of the blackbird(s)'. Morphologically, 'Kosovo' is a possessive adjective. However, it has come to be used as a proper noun referring to the plain. From the view of Serbian grammar, 'Kosovo' is an adjective. The Albanian name is 'Kosovë' (feminine singular indefinate noun), but the definite noun 'Kosova' is more common. It derives from the Serbian. In the definite genitive, it is 'e Kosovës'. The proper adjective formed from 'Kosovë' is 'kosovar'. The form 'Kosovan' seems like a hybrid to me: the '-an' ending looks like that in 'American', from the Latin ending '-ānus'. Thus, using 'Kosovo' as an adjective looks more Serbian, but could reflect the English usage of 'the England football team'. Using 'Kosovar' as an adjective looks more Albanian. 'Kosovan' seems to have come about as an attempt to make a new adjective by those who either didn't know of the adjectival property of the previous two. — Gareth Hughes 15:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Minor clarification re "From the view of Serbian grammar, 'Kosovo' is an adjective." It's not, at least not anymore, although it started as such: it has proper adjective "Kosovski", and 'Kosovo' behaves like any other (neuter) noun. Compare a similar situation with e.g. surname "Markov", which also originates as a possessive: however, since it's a noun, its adjective is "Markovljev proces". Duja► 12:47, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

rhetorical question

Above page claims "Some rhetorical questions become idiomatic English expressions" including "I am Harry Potter" - is this a mistake - it's new to me, otherwise can someone please explain. Thank you.83.100.252.241 19:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It was just vandalism; I've reverted it. Thanks for pointing it out. —Angr 19:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Use of non Gender terms rather than man/he and woman/she

Is it the policy of Wikipedia to use gender neutral terms in articles? In particular, in articles about partner dances, the terms noun "man" or the pronoun "he", and the noun "woman" or the pronoun "she", traditionally, the man leads, the woman follows. This is particularly true in the conservative country western dance community. Is there a policy on this usage, and if so, what is it? I have just spent 15 munites trying to find an answer to this. Steve Pastor 23:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

These days, almost all writers of English try to write in a gender neutral way. It's almost de rigeur, which is why it is not specifically mentioned as Wikipedia policy. I can see why articles about partner dances could be problematic. I've been to lots of dances in which women have been obliged to dance with female partners, but the caller will still describe the leader as "the man", and I don't think anyone takes offence at this. If you can provide the titles of specific articles as examples I will take a look at them.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

This applies in particluar to the country western two step page, where man/woman was recently replaced with the gender neutral language. My own experience is the same as yours when it comes to country western dance, ust one of the places where use of the term "de riguer" would probably elicit blank stares. I accept the use of "neutered" pronouns in other dances, but believe that the use of man/woman in describing the dance of such a conservative segment of the population is more appropriate. I ask the policy question to access the strength of my argument. Thanks for any further comments. Steve Pastor 15:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you can assume that "country western two step" and "conservative" go hand in hand. There's quite a large gay subculture involved in various types of country western dancing. --LarryMac | Talk 15:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not every day I see two different misspellings of de rigueur in adjacent paragraphs. —Tamfang 01:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

While I don't question the existence of a gay contry western dancing subculture, I have never unknowingly walked into a gay country western dance scene. The use of the term subculture, "large" or not indicates that it is not mainstream. No doubt I could find one if I wanted to.but, the cw 2 step article is not about the gay country western scene. Use of gender neutral terms in an article on that topic would be appropriate. Steve Pastor 17:54, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I presuming that you are joking but just in case...conservative in language and conservative in sexual-liberty/preference are pretty different. You could prefer traditional terminology and still have open views on sexuality, or you could have "common usage = acceptable" style views on language and be rabidly anti-gay/lesbian. Regarding trying to make dance-articles gender neutral - I have had a fascinating debate with a somewhat strong minded femminist about this, they took the view that taking man to mean 'lead' and woman to mean 'the person being led' was perpetuating stereotypes that continue to promote the idea that men are more powerful/important/worthy than women. I personally think that whilst perhaps historically this is why language showed he/she I think the majority of modern usage is merely a consequence of history rather than trying to perpetuate such a situation - we had to agree to disagree unfortunatley. Anyway sorry this isn't really all that useful an answer - oh well. ny156uk 17:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. Your comments seem to suggest you think that for a term to be perpetuating a stereotype, the person using the term would have to be trying to perpetuate the stereotype, rather than using the term as a consequence of history. I assume that's just an accident of typing, since it would enable the strawman of 'Are you saying [such and such] is deliberately perpetuating sexist attitudes?', which would be silly. Modern usage is almost entirely a consequence of history, but that doesn't mean it doesn't perpetuate a stereotype. Calling all firefighters 'firemen' is a consequence of history for most people who do so, and doesn't indicate that the person is sexist, but using such terms perpetuate the stereotype that (for example) all firefighters are men. It is the same for dancing. However, this being Wikipedia, I would recommend using the terms used in the sources for the article. Skittle 21:51, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the words we use should reflect the reality that is, rather than the reality that some proportion of the population wants to exist. In other words, if the vast majority of leaders are men, as they are in country western two step, then using the words men, man, and he, would be appropriate. And, no, I haven't been kidding about anything I've written here. If anyone would like clarification, we can do it here, or on my talk page if it is too off topic. Please be specific. Steve Pastor 22:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

August 1

Chinese translation

What is zh:帛金 in English? Or, how is it best translated into English? Many thanks, --HappyCamper 02:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

From what I gather in the Cantonese version of the article, when a person dies, his friends give money in envelopes to the deceased's family to show respect for the dead, as well as his family. The first character means "silk", and refers to valuable material. The second word means "gold" - self-explanatory. So I guess one way you could call it is "funeral money." Pandacomics 03:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Purely fictional money given to the dead is sometimes called "hell banknotes"... AnonMoos 15:10, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

No, "funeral money" (or "funeral succor/relief"?) is real money given to the families of the deceased, not to the deceased. The term seems only occur in the southern dialects (Cantonese, Hakka), and has no standard translation.--K.C. Tang 01:34, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

A Chinese co-worker of mine recently died, and we collected money in the office to give to her family. When my father in the U.S. died, though, what friends of the family brought us was food (things that were easy to freeze and re-heat later), which was probably more useful. None of us was really in any condition to cook. —Angr 21:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

How do you pronounce: Temescal  ? Choices: TE-mes-cal, Te-MES-cal, etc.

Please post the answer, somewhere, in the Temescal entry.

Thanks.

Only a local answer is likely to help you. You could try calling the Temescal Branch Library in Oakland, California, on 510 597-5049. Xn4 10:49, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Kenyon and Knott has the stress on the last syllable: [ˌtɛməsˈkæl]. --Cam 01:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Correction: [ˌtɛməˈskæl]. --Cam 01:52, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Just a quick note to Xn4 that we ('Merkins) make calls at a certain number, not on one, just as we live on such-and-such a street, not in it (unless, oddly enough, we happen to be homeless). +ILike2BeAnonymous 07:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I used to live in Malibu, California, where there is a Temescal Canyon. We always said "te-MES-cal"--for whatever that's worth! I have no idea if that is the "correct" pronunciation.--Eriastrum 17:05, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Marked nouns in English

Our article on Marker (linguistics) includes the following example of markedness (which is of course a different notion):

"A marked form is a non-basic form, such as the singular of nouns in English (e.g. 'cat' versus 'cats')."

It seems to me that the singular is decidedly unmarked in English. Am I being dense? Tesseran 03:50, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

In that sentence in the article I've replaced "marked" by "unmarked" and "non-basic" by "basic".  --Lambiam 05:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

What are Delation and Zele

These are a couple of words in the article on Indignité_nationale (a legally defined offence, created at the Liberation of france during WWII in the context of the "Épuration légale"). I found this definition of Delation on the French Wikipedia, but I don't read French. From the Article:

La délation est la dénonciation faite dans le but d'en retirer un avantage personnel (ou inspirée par un motif méprisable, selon la définition du Robert). Un délateur est une personne pratiquant la délation.

Dans le langage courant, délation paraît de plus en plus utilisé pour une simple dénonciation. Cette assimilation trouve sans doute son origine dans le cas de délation le plus connu : les dénonciations pratiquées sous l'occupation par les collaborateurs.

I was also thinking Zele may be a French spelling for Zeal?

Thanks, --Czmtzc 13:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

"La délation is a denunciation made with the aim to draw a personal advantage out of it (or inspired by a contemptible motive, according to Robert's definition.) A délateur is a person practicing délation.

Colloquially, délation seems to get used increasingly for a simple denunciation. This assimilation, without doubt, finds its origins in the best known case of délation : the denunciations under occupation made by collaborators ."

WordReference.com has zeal for "zèle", and "good will" for "bon zèle", but "zealous", "officious", and "eager beaver" for "zélé". For "délation" it has "denouncement" and "tattling", while "délateur (dénonciateur)". is translated as "canary (informer)" . ---Sluzzelin talk 14:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Perfect! thanks! Czmtzc 14:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Pottery translation

Can someone please identify/translate the symbols found here. (sorry for the low quality pic. the symbols were pretty faded as is.) They were found on the inside of the bottom of a broken piece of pottery. 69.123.113.89 18:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I might be wrong, but I think it's either running script or grass script. Please see East Asian calligraphy. The first character is probably 京, [capital] city. --Kjoonlee 18:52, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The second character vaguely reminds me of 汚 (wikt:汚), but I'm not at all familiar with cursive scripts so don't take my word for it. The last character reminds me of Hiragana ら a bit, which was derived from 良 (wikt:良), but again, I could be totally wrong. --Kjoonlee 19:19, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I photoshopped it a bit, adding cyan lines to show the characters (parts were too faint to scan properly). It can be viewed here. 69.123.113.89 19:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

But are you sure they're Chinese characters at the first place?--K.C. Tang 02:26, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

They are definitly characters of some kind, but I don't have the slightest idea if they're Chinese. 69.123.113.89 19:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Manual

I pronounce manual differently depending on whether I mean something like a manual gear stick (sounds like manyil) versus an instruction manual (sounds more like manyul). Is this a recognised difference, are there other words like this, does this phenomenon have a name?

Aaadddaaammm 22:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

No idea, but I pronounce both the same, and different from both of your pronunciations: "man-yu-wool" in three syllables. —Angr 22:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I pronounce it as "MAN-yu-al". You didn't give any stress markers, so I'm not sure, but you could be using a self invented Initial-stress-derived noun, where "manyil" is your adjective and "manyul" is your noun. HYENASTE 00:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Certainly there are other words like that. In American usage, "offense" and "defense" are often accented on the first syllable when referring to one of the two sides of a conflict, as in sports, but on the second syllable in other senses such as "an offense against human decency" or "a defense against viruses" (see e.g. at www.m-w.com). I'm not aware of a name for the phenomenon. --Anonymous, August 2, 2007, 04:03 (UTC).

In both the Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary and in the American Heritage Dictionary (both on line), "manual" is given only one pronunciation for all meanings: "man'yoo-el". As an American, I don't recall hearing any difference in the pronunciation of the word for different meanings.--Eriastrum 16:58, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

OR, but I pronounce Manual in the same manner as AAAdddaaaammmm. For reference, I'm from Texas. -Czmtzc 19:47, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Very interesting! Thanks for all the info. I'm from Noo Zealand FYI and I think the initial stress derived noun could be what's at play here. Keep it coming, if you have more to contribute. Aaadddaaammm 21:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

August 2

Logical fallacy.

I'm sure I've seen it here so sorry but I've been googling it for half an hour and I just can't think of it!! What's the logical fallacy that is something like : it is very unlikely a new discovery is made within a field by someone who is not an expert. ?

sorry forgot to sign, Vespine 01:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Appeal to authority? --Reuben 02:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

perhaps we can coin something like "distrust in amateurs".--K.C. Tang 02:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we are qualified enough to coin a new word. Leave that to the dictionaries. HYENASTE 02:54, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

just for the convenience of this discussion, not for any "original research" on the Wikipedia, to be sure...--K.C. Tang 03:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Dictionary writers aren't supposed to coin words. --Anon, August 2, 04:05 (UTC).

In many cases it is very unlikely – depending on how well studied the field is, and how much effort it takes to become an expert. So I'd say this is, in general, not an actual logical fallacy. It would be one for a new field in which there are no experts yet. The argument is vaguely reminiscent of Appeal to tradition.  --Lambiam 04:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

However, if you reason that "it is very unlikely for a new discovery to be made by a non-expert; therefore this claim that there has been a new discovery by a non-expert is wrong", that is the fallacy of appeal to probability. --Anon, August 2, 04:10 (UTC).

The context is I have technophobic friends, who know next to nothing about computers or the internet who sometime come up to me telling me they have this great idea to make heaps of money on the internet; (me working in the IT field have default become the local expert) mind you I don't know much about internet marketing. What I do know is that the IT bubble burst a long time ago and there are a lot of people trying various things to make money on the interent and unless you are getting into gambling or porn, you have to be somewhat internet savvy before attempting to start online business. I'm sure there is a logical fallacy in there somewhere, they knowing NOTHING about the internet think they have a better idea about making money off it then a million people who are trying to do nothing but that. The same thing applies to just about any field you can think of, not just the internet, Vespine 04:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

So what's the logic behind your friends' thinking "they have a better idea about making money off it"? There can be no logical fallacy if there's no logic at all.--K.C. Tang 05:01, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Lambion sorry your post didn't quite sink in, I didn't word myself correctly, the logical fallacy is the opposite of what I wrote, like you said, it IS, as in see my internet example above. That argument is used to oppose the logical fallacy I'm trying to think of. Vespine 05:58, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Emotional bias or Wishful thinking? ---Sluzzelin talk 11:39, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Of course, there's a world of difference between an unlikelihood and a fallacy. In this instance, if someone had a new and brilliant idea for making a lot of money (unlikely, perhaps, but possible), then it might be one which could be projected on the internet. Complex though the internet is, no one needs to be a technician to use it as a tool, any more than it takes an aeronautical engineer to fly a helicopter. Xn4 12:20, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

This question was discussed a bit (without resolution, but at least there's some Mencken) over here. --TotoBaggins 17:36, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Have you checked List of fallacies? 152.16.188.107 03:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

How about Dunning-Kruger effect? --Reuben 04:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Australian vs English Accent

How come Americans cannot seem to distinguish between an English accent and an Australian? Being an Australian, the two are totally different and can be distinguised within a few words! I know plenty of Australians who say they were often mistaken as being English whilst in America. Do the two accents really seem the same to their ears, or is it because they assume we all speak like Steve Irwin, and anything else is an English accent? :D

Also, just curious, can Americans and English people tell an Australian accent apart from a New Zealander's? I know that I cannot tell an American from a Canadian (except perhaps that Canadians speak a bit less 'harsher', for lack of better word), even though Americans insist that they are way different.

I'm British and have friends from all of these places. I am generally able to recognise the difference between a New Zealand and an Australian accent, and between a Canadian and a US accent. I find the distinction quite small from my point of view, and I know that most other British people cannot tell the difference between them. For me, the Australian and British accents are quite different. Looking at the vowels in the IPA chart for English just shows how clear the difference is. However, I imagine that many Americans do not have the opportunity to hear these accents, properly labelled, regularly. This might be one of the reasons why the NZ/Oz and Can/US accents are difficult for Brits, but I maintain that these pairs are closer than Australian/British. — Gareth Hughes 13:00, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

i can tell Australian from English, but from South African is harder. Not sure if I can tell Australian from New Zealand, which probably means that I can't. Watching TV, I can often detect a trace of Canadian accent and sure enough at the end of the show it turns out to have been filmed in Canada. Gzuckier 14:40, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm American and can tell all the accents apart (Kiwis from Aussies, Canucks from Yanks etc.). However, I lived in Australia for over a year and can often tell regional accents apart quite well too (Adelaide vs. Sydney vs. Cairns). That being said, I'd say the reason why the "average" American can't spot the differences is simple exposure. Most Americans will never leave America or have a passport. Additionally, our pop-culture representations of the various accents is often off (with Australians playing Americans, Americans playing Brits, and Canadians playing South Africans -- to varying degrees of success). The best example of this is the "accent" of the guy in the Outback Steakhouse commercials in the states -- I've never heard anyone anywhere talk like him. Moreover, the typical northern Queensland-like accent (and to a lesser extent a central "outback"-like accent) is almost the only version of an Australia accent represented in our media (think Crocodile Dundee, Steve Irwin etc.). So when an American that thinks all Australians sound like Steve Irwin, hears someone from say Adelaide, then they often can't place the accent and default it to British. --Cody.Pope 14:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you're spot on, Cody. An example of this regarded as a classic over here, is Dick van Dyke's ridiculously awful attempt at a Cockney accent in Mary Poppins. Just laughable. As an aside, a comedian I once saw at London's Comedy Store, did a routine about how Sean Connery never plays Scots, making a living playing Englishmen (e.g. James Bond, or King Richard I) and sometimes Irishmen (e.g. in The Untouchables). Then imagine - one day his agent calls and says "Sean, I've landed you a role in a film about medieval Scotland!" "Really?" "Yes. You'll play a Spanish nobleman! --Dweller 15:07, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

And wasn't he really ancient Egyptian? Corvus cornix 16:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Sure, but his current pseudonym at the time was Ramirez. -Czmtzc 19:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

As to the original question, I think the reason why British and Australian accents sound similar to American ears is that they have a major common feature: the absence of an American accent. I have heard that to British ears, American and Australian accents sound similar: this would be because they both involve the absence of a British accent. What specific phonological features might be involved, I can't say. --Anonymous, August 2, 2007, 21:40 (UTC).

I had a friend from Texas who hated her accent and overlaid it with phony British. She has been mistaken for Australian. —Tamfang 00:34, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm English and don't have a bad ear for accents. I have no trouble spotting Canadians, South Africans, Barbadians, and even the broad variations between the US regions, but I do have trouble separating Australians and New Zealanders.

With Australian English, the variations in pronunciations between that and what we could call BBC English are no greater than between BBC English and most UK regional dialects (several of which are regularly heard on TV in the US), and on the whole Australian turns of phrase are much nearer to English English than to American English. So if some Americans think Aussie is an English accent, it doesn't surprise me.

I can't agree with Anonymous that there is such a thing as a 'British accent'. Would anyone from the UK use that term? I wouldn't, myself. Xn4 01:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Non-Surety Bond

Definition of "Surety Bond" is here, but read an article with a "Non-Surety Bond" and cannot make sense of it without the proper legal definition... --Binkywright 13:15, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

An explanation can be found here. Not being familiar with the notion, I can't guarantee its correctness. Furthermore, the precise meaning may be jurisdiction-dependent.  --Lambiam 22:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

to play catchup

In the letter I came across such phrase: "I'm playing catchup here". What does it mean?--Seaweed71 14:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

It means you're having to "catch up" with other people - like for example if they know something you don't. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

The metaphor is of people running, one falling behind and needing to catch up. —Tamfang 01:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Usage of English

When a judge finally disposed a case, what is the right expression: disposed off, or disposed of?

Disposed of, although personally I am not familiar with the term - is it a legal term to signify the end of a case? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:06, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

It is a general English term. The meaning of "to dispose of an issue" is: "to deal with the issue" – in a conclusive way, so that no further dealing will be needed. A quote from the Nebraska Administrative Code: The Hearing Officer disposes of any pending motions, petitions or stipulations and other matters that need to be dealt with before evidence is taken.  --Lambiam 17:47, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Drop that idiom!

Is the term "butterfingers" used in British English? For the record, that would be used for someone who is prone to dropping things, and I want to use an adjectival form in an email I'm sending to a friend in Birmingham (e.g. "should be safe from butterfingered neighbors.") --LarryMac | Talk 15:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but those who are buttefingered are neighbours. — Gareth Hughes 15:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

If the writer is American, he would drop the 'u' even if he is writing to an English friend. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:18, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I will parenthesize the u, to make a colo(u)rful statement.  :-) --LarryMac | Talk 15:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Free dictionary for download

Is there a free dictionary of the english language available for download in a readily accessible database format (e.g. excel, access)? And if not, why? Who owns my language!

Nobody may own the language, but dictionaries are original and copyrighted works, so it would not be surprising if they weren't available for free download. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 16:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

There's at least one dictionary which has lapsed into the public domain which has been scanned and OCR'd, although I've lost track of it. I'm sure google would turn something up without too much effort. 65.91.98.102 21:45, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Try the Compact Oxford English Dictionary online here. Xn4 02:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hard to pronounce, but I did it

Hi. I was reading the guiness book of world records, and I saw a list of the longest word in 14 languages. I parcticed saying each word many times, then started recording the time on a stopwatch, until I got the fastest time. I'm not sure if there are any world or local records for fast speech of certain long words, and I doubt I broke any of them, but here is a list of words, their language, and the fastest time I recorded of me saying them without making errors (although likely I said them with a heavy accent). Here goes:

• Japanese: chinchinmogamaga (transliterated): 0.53 secs
• Castilian: superextraordinarísimo: 0.9 secs
• French: anticonstitutionellement: 0.9 secs
• Italian: precipitevolissimevolmente: 1.09 secs
• Portuguese: inconstitucionalissimamente: 1.15 secs
• Icelandic: hæcstaréttarmalaflutinsmaõur (the o accent actually looks like a slightly bent cross): 1.12 secs
• Russian: ryentgyenoelyektrokardiografichyeskogo (transliterated): 1.9 secs
• German: Rechtsschutzversicherungsgesellschaften: 2.12 secs
• Hungarian: megszentségtelenithetetlenségeskedéseitekért: 2.38 secs
• English: pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovocano-coniosis: 1.97 secs
• Dutch: kindercarnavalsoptochtvoorbereidinswerkzaamheden: 2 secs
• Danish: speciallægepraksisplanlægningsstabiliseringsperiode: 2.28 secs
• Finnish: lentokonesuihkuturbiinimootoriapumekaanikkoliupseerioppilas: 4.32 secs
• Swedish: nordöstersjökustartilleriflygspaninssimulatoranläggningsmaterielunderhållsuppföljningssystemdiskussionsinläggsförberedelse-arbeten: 8.16 secs.

So, if there are any records for quick pronounciation of these words, did any of my times come close? What does a test to see how quickly one can say words in a given language tell you about the participant? how quickly, in theory, would the world's fastest speaker say each of these words? Thanks. ~AH1^(TCU) 16:20, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

The Icelandic word should be "hæstaréttarmálaflutningsmaður". The letter you find hard to recognize is eth. As for your questions, I have no idea. I doubt there are recorded or well-defined records for this. Haukur 19:44, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes instead of Da in a Russian movie

I just finished watching the Russian movie Night Watch and noticed that the English word "Yes" was used instead of Russian (twice in the scene where the boy Yegor asks his mom about vampires). Is it common for "Yes" to replace "Da" ? Is it perhaps used to indicate the family's origins, or maybe something else? TresÁrboles 19:58, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

No, we do not say yes instead of da in Russia. I think it has something to do with the nationality of the family. But we usually say yes if we want to show that we are very glad and satisfied with something. So, if you learn somethng pleasant, you say Yes!

Is it possible they were saying "Есть" (yest’) and it just sounded like "Yes" to you? —Angr 21:10, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

To elaborate on why this is likely: if Yegor asked "Mama, do vampires really exist?" and she answered "Yes", she might well have used the Russian word есть (yest'). In this context, the word means "there exists", in the sense of "Do vampires really exist?" "They exist." Tesseran 00:28, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

This is probably it -- a happy coincidence "they exist" in Russian sounds like "Yes". I uploaded a (fair-use I believe -- delete if not) small audio sample so the context can be checked. The English subtitles were:

(Yegor) Mom...

(Irina, talking to someone on the phone) You can't?

(Yegor) Mom? Are vampires real?

(Irina) Yes, Yegor.

(Irina) They're little boys who suck the life out of their parents. TresÁrboles 01:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Is есть used in plural as well as singular? —Tamfang 01:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. It's interesting to note that yest' is a cognate of English is and Latin est: Indo-European copula. Not obvious whether it's also a cognate of yes: [5] --Reuben 02:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

It's also used to express possession, like we would use "have" in English. So if Yegor asked "Do you have a pen?" the answer might also be yest'. --Reuben 00:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Polish: ryńskich

What is the literal meaning of the word ryńskich, which occurs on XIXth century Austrian banknotes (like this 500 Gulden banknote from 1806)? It stands for the denomination of the banknote, but Gulden is złoty in Polish as far as I know. Timur lenk 20:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the term. Rynek means "market" which sounds like the root of the word, if that's the case "ryńskich" would literally be the possesive form of the noun, as in "of the market", which makes sense I suppose to use as a word for currency. Googling the term, it looks like in other places the word is actually used with złotych, as in złotych ryńskich, golden currency. My Polish is probably only about as good as a 10 year old's, so I could be completely wrong. Vespine 23:10, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Probably you're close to the solution: an 1866 one Gulden bill says (on its reverse, lower right hand side corner): Jeden złoty reński. Złoty must stand for Gulden, the currency name, not for gold, since the Austrian Gulden (Gulden österreichische Währung) was a silver-standard currency (however both złoty and Gulden means golden and designated a type of golden coin originally). The denomination is indicated in 9 languages on this bill, but only the Polish version has three words, that's why ryńskich or reński is interesting. The Czech version says Jeden zlaty on the same note, while the Ukrainian says (roughly) Оден реньскіи which also contains rensky. Timur lenk 00:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Apparently it's a "Rhenish zloty": [6]. There may have been a few different kinds of zloty at the same time, since Poland was partitioned several times, and I think this was to clarify which kind was meant. --Reuben 01:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Slimeball

If we say that a person is a slimeball, what does it mean?

It means we see him or her as "a despicable or disgusting person". ---Sluzzelin talk 20:38, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

August 3

Ancient Greek

Is

ό την εφορος όλιγορχηιν

grammatically correct for "the overseer of the oligarchy"? - using Ephoros as overseer (is it correct to do so?). Thanks ΦΙΛ Κ 00:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Period in numbers

According to full stop, "In most English-speaking countries, the full stop has the former usage while a comma or a space is used for the latter"

"In much of Europe, however, a comma is used as a decimal separator, while a full stop or a space is used for the presentation of large numbers"

Why the difference? 68.231.151.161 02:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Your question leaves out the beginning of the quotation, which is needed to understand it -

“ The same glyph has two separate uses with regard to numbers, the one applied being determined by the country it is used in: as a decimal separator and in presenting large numbers in a more readable form. ”

The difference simply represents the survival of different traditions in accounting and in writing numbers which have grown up over about the last two hundred years. These usages became standardized at each national level, and not at a pan-European level, though in practice the French forms came to dominate much of continental Europe, while the English-speaking world held onto its own quite different ideas. Until recently, much the same was true of the systems of measurement in use in Europe, though the metric system is now in the ascendant everywhere. Xn4 02:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Even within English-speaking countries, the use of the dot as a decimal point didn't come close to universal until the last 40 years or so. Before that, it was common practice in Britain to use a centered dot (·). --Anonymous, August 3, 2007, 03:10 (UTC).