Talk:Suleiman the Magnificent

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Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in an archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. Baristarim 01:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC) Archives: Archive 1 - Archived on November 22, 2006

Comments

POV

There are some serious POV issues with this article. Even his defeat at Vienna is listed under 'Military Achievements'.

I'm open to rewording. But the fact that the empire reached the borders of Central Europe was an achievement in itself. --A.Garnet 14:15, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Good article review

This article has been nominated for good article review. Baristarim 00:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Some ideas.

I came here from the GA page and I don't know anything about Suleiman, so reading this article was very interesting. I think it will be hard to be a GA without more references -- I would generally expect to see about one per paragraph, or at least one per subsection. If you have books about Suleiman that can be fairly simple to accomplish, just look in the index for the event and there you are.

Also, I think the lead could use some light copyediting. Here's what I would suggest:

Suleiman I (Modern Turkish: Süleyman; Arabic: سليمان‎ Sulaymān) (6 November 1494 – 5 September/6, 1566), was the tenth and longest-serving Sultan from the House of Osman of the Ottoman Empire, reigning from 1520 to 1566. Under his leadership, the Ottoman Empire reached its zenith and became a world power. Suleiman was also considered one of the pre-eminent rulers of 16th-century Europe; a respected rival to Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (1519–56), Francis I of France (1515–47), Henry VIII of England (1509–47), and Sigismund II of Poland (1548–72). Suleiman personally led Ottoman armies which conquered Belgrade, Rhodes, and most of Hungary; besieged Vienna; and annexed most of the Middle East and territories of North Africa as far west as Morocco. Under Suleiman's rule, Ottomans achieved naval dominance in the Mediterranean Sea, Red Sea, and Persian Gulf, and the empire continued expanding for a century after his death.

Of course, you can take that or lump it! The most notable thing I'd change is that "Suleiman personally led" sentence, because having "led armies to conquer x,y,z" followed by "beseiged" -- well, it confused me when I read it.

Finally, the military campaigns seem a little stubby. If stuff could be merged or expanded I think that would be a good thing.

But all in all I think the main sticking point is the references. If the article had more proper references I think it would be a GA. Katsam 03:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Emperor Suleiman I organized 13 military campaigns during his reign and actually died in the beginning of the 14th one so people who contributed to the article possibly mixed some data and more badly skipped some important details. Also being the sole decision maker of one of the leading world powers of his time for over 40 years makes it hard to prepare an article which doesn't skip or mix many material. I'm personally waiting offers from other Wikipedians so we can discuss more efficiently here. See you, Deliogul 16:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

You should unwikilink the year dates, as it is just distracting otherwise and doesn't contribute anything. b_cubed 00:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

GA failed

This article has a lot going for it. But its copy is sometimes hard to read (I would recommend smaller sentences or at least fewer parenthetical clauses). It is also sort of "stubby." But the biggest issue it has is lack of references -- it's a very big article and should have more than 17 in-line references. I think with references and a light copy-edit, though, it would be a GA -- and it's very interesting! Katsam 01:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Restructure Military achievements?

I propose the conquests be divided into "conquests in Europe" and "conquests in Middle East and Africa". As it is, to expand each conquest on its own will mean talking more about each conflict as opposed to Suleiman himself. The way i propose a more general narrative can be given of the conquests without dividing the article into little stubs. I'd appreciate suggestions. --A.Garnet 16:20, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Having more sections is good. Deliogul 21:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Some sort of division, yes, and geographical seems simplest. Can I say "Well done!"? It's great to see references being added. This is a subject where Wikipedia should have a featured article. Thanks! Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:27, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for comments. Hopefully in time with a bit of work it can reach FA. --A.Garnet 00:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Featured article drive for WP Turkey

I took the liberty of replacing Turkey with this article for the WPTR Featured article drive in WPTR tasks page. It is nothing formal or anything :) So what do you think that needs to be done? ~~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Baristarim (talk • contribs) 19:11, 13 January 2007 (UTC).

We need more links to some specific battles and campaigns. We also need more detail about international relations. Current article only features military conflicts. Deliogul 19:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Good, i was going to raise this article for a possible FA drive. I began more a less a complete rewrite of the Military achievements section, taking it away from the stubby feeling of before, still need to get round to Mediterrenean and North Africa to finish it. Deliogul is right about international relations, i thought to include a "diplomacy" section where we could highlight the various alliances and detentes with European powers and the role Suleiman had in shaping Europe. For the other sections, the biggest problem i personally have is sources. Talking about the military conquests is not that difficult since many general books about the Ottoman Empire cover them. However culutral and administrative changes under Suleiman require more specific literature on his reign which i do not have, except Andre Clot (which is on loan). Finally there is still much info to add, all of which will require some research from good sources. Need to expand administrative reforms (he is the law giver after all) and cultural achievements as well as the political intrigues by Hurrem Sultan and his relationship with Ibrahim Pasha. Thanks, --A.Garnet 20:54, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to find sources for international relations but it seems like many people think that military conflicts and diplomacy are the same thing because in every link that I clicked, I saw Suleiman's conquests rather than the connections between the West and the Ottoman Empire during his reign. Maybe I should go to the university's library. Deliogul 22:50, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Islamic calligraphy

This section is not "directly" linked to the sultan himself. It is more related to the period, which is defined as "golden age". I'm proposing that anything that does not directly related to sultan should NOT be here; maybe under the culture of the Ottoman Empire? OttomanReference 21:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Personal items!!!

Is it possible to get the pics of his personal items? such as his kaftan, etc.. Hope someone has an access to these resources. --OttomanReference 23:52, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I found the picture of his sword.[1] The second sword from the bottom. See you, Deliogul 18:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Belgrade

We should create a stub for the Siege of Belgrade (1521). Lysandros 03:22, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

FA drive

I've placed some tasks above at the top. Would appreciate more users helping out, expanding the stubby sections and providing good sources. Cheers, --A.Garnet 21:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC) --Free smyrnan 16:31, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

article improvement drive

You can nominate the article for Wikipedia article improvement drive of the week here. Need 4 votes by March 30th. Perhaps we can place this somewhere prominent on the WP:Turkey, like an announcements section on the front page. Thanks, --A.Garnet 21:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Ibrahim Pasha

I think we must mention İbrahim Pasha's position better. According to the Ottoman tradition, Viziers had to govern a given territory before they could be selected as Grand Vizier but in İbrahim's case, Suleiman skipped that and directly made him his Grand Vizier. This shows us the political power of Suleiman above the traditional laws and makes it easier to explain İbrahim's fast fall-from-power in later years. Beylerbeyi title was given to İbrahim after he rose to power ;) Deliogul 08:02, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes of course he deserves more mention and he will get it in time. Did I not make clear he was made beylerbeyi after becoming Vizier? Anyway, feel free to edit this article yourself :) --A.Garnet 10:54, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

There are are a few things that need to be done to make the article become GA status.

As it stands the article is lacking references in some areas. A good rule of thumb is that each paragraph must have at least one reference. Here are the places that they are needed.

• First and second paragraphs in 'Mediteranean and North Africa" need references.Y Done
• This sections in 'Cultural Achievements' needs a reference: Furthmore, in the city of Jerusalem, the rule of Suleiman and the following Ottoman Sultans brought an age of religious peace; Jews, Christians and Muslims enjoyed the freedom of religion that the Ottomans granted them and it was possible to find a synagogue, a church and a mosque in the same street. Dhimmi was enforced on the populace granting some freedoms and restricting others. - Removed, see below --A.Garnet 21:45, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
• First paragraph of the personal life section needs a reference.Y Done
• Last paragraph in succession section needs referencing. Y Done
• Last paragraph in legacy section needs a reference. Y Done

In addition, the citations have inconsistent formatting that needs to be fixed in order to follow one single style. Here are a few things that need to be done. Y Done

• All citations must have period at the end of them.
• You don't need to author's first name in the citations.
• Follow a consistent form of citation.

Another issue:

• This does not be quoted: "The earliest document, drawn up in 1526, lists 40 societies with over 600 members; by Sthe 17th century the number of societies had increased and their membership had risen to some 2,000. In addition to the artists employed in the imperial societies, in Istanbul, like all the major centers of the empire, had diverse guilds of artisans which catered to both domestic and foreign needs."

I would paraphrase this entire quote, as it really adds nothing to the article in its current format. Y Done

Besides these referencing issues, the article is very good, and fulfills all the other GA requirements. Zeus1234 15:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Zeus, thanks for your prompt review of this article. I hope my edits today meet your above suggestions. As for the Jewish related paragraph, I have chose to remove it since I do not believe it contributes to Suleimans cultural achivements, it was also one of those sections left behind since I began rewriting this article so it was always problematic in trying to get it to fit in. Thanks, --A.Garnet 21:45, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Just saying it, i found some books in my university's library written directly for Suleiman, i think they might be useful in further referencing and improving the article as it is said that there is such a need. Im going to check them myself, for anyone who might be interested in them:

-Suleiman, the Magnificent : Sultan of the East / by Harold Lamb, Garden City, N.Y. : Doubleday, 1951.

-Suleiman the Magnificent, 1520-1566 / by Roger Bigelow Merriman, Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University Press, 1944.

-The zenith of an empire : the glory of the Suleiman the Magnificent and the law giver / S.Z. Ahmed. ISBN 0971587302 (pbk.) :

-Lords of the Golden Horn : from Suleiman the Magnificent to Kamal Ataturk / Noel Barber, London : Pan Books, 1976 ISBN 0330247352

-The government of the Ottoman Empire in the time of Suleiman the Magnificent / by Albert Howe Lybyer, London : Harvard University, 1913.

-Süleyman the Magnificent and the Ottoman Empire / by Miriam Greenblatt, New York : Benchmark Books, 2003. ISBN 0761414894

-The Grand Turke : Suleyman the Magnificent, sultan of the Ottomans / by Fairfax Downey, New York : Minton, Balch & Company, 1929. --laertes d 22:27, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Laertes, if more info can be added from those sources that would be a great contribution. Specifically, the areas I believe that need expanding are his early life, cultural and administrative reforms and relationship with Hurrem Sultan. Cheers, --A.Garnet 10:22, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I havent checked all the books in the list yet but i did some edits, in case you think some of them are rebundant they might be deleted...--laertes d 17:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Garnett, i think the parts you deleted do not harm the article as they mention about Suleımans knowledge and interes of antiquity, lıke his youth hero being Alexander or that he was ınfluenced by Aristotle..ı try to fit them into the article..--laertes d 14:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Relations with France

Suleiman wasn't a "respected rival" of Francis because the king of French was the only ally of the Ottoman Empire in the Western Europe. He was also depended on Suleiman because of his fragile power and surrounding rivals. Imho, we need to fix that part of the article. Deliogul 20:15, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

So nobody reads the discussion page? Deliogul 18:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Deliogul youre right actually but i think that wording "respected rival" is being used in the sense that eventually all these men were rivals to each other even though they may form alliances among themselves against others..no problem for me though if somebody change it..--laertes d 23:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Reared in Crimea?

Older sources claim that "Suleiman had been governor of Kaffa while his grandfather Bayezid was alive".[2] If true, this fact certainly should be reflected in the article. --Ghirla^-трёп- 20:12, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

There's an edition of Fisher's 1948 Foreign relations of Turkey 1418-1512 available through the Electronic Journal of Oriental Studies at Utrecht uni. The relevant part is chapter 8, which deals with 1511-1512. On p.98 (=p. 4 of the pdf), Fisher states that Suleiman governed Kaffa in 1511 (?from 1510 the year of Korkud's return?). Governor for two years =/= "reared in Crimea". Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Nevertheless, the article should reflect in some way that Suleiman served as governor of Kaffa/Crimea/whatever the technical term for the territory was. Lord Kinross's The Ottoman Centuries also mentions that he was governor there (saying specifically Crimea), while suggesting that Suleiman was partially responsible for the army assembled by his father there during his bid to replace/oust Bayezid and outmaneuver Ahmed. If someone can find further corroboration of this, it would make a wonderful addition to the early section of the article. 204.52.215.69 16:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Ghirla already add that he was governor there to the article. The Fisher piece should have a bibliography and some of the Turcophone editors may be aware of sources which deal in depth with the war. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)