Fritzpoll

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexis Grace (2nd nomination)

At first I was going to take this to DRV but I noticed an argument that wasn't mentioned in the main discussion unless I am missing something. Maybe it was in the DRV (which I can't find right now). There is ample precedent in previous AfD discussions. In fact, some of these discussions aren't even a month old. See here and here. They were the 2 articles put up for AfD at the same time as the original Alexis Grace nomination. And there are lots and lots of others. See here. As I've said in other places, this happens every year. My issue is that if Grace's article needs to be deleted then so do almost all of the AI8 articles unless they pass BLP correct? And for that matter, so would a good chunk of the previous seasons' AI articles. Sarver and Gokey do not have arguments much different than those used in the Grace discussion. If you want to overturn previous precedent, that's your call and I won't dispute that. But then we have to be consistent. Or else we're going through this again the next time.

My point here is that I'm afraid that with a new precedent here, it's going to make future discussions more contentious. So if we are going to have a new precedent, that's fine but then it needs to be evenly used. Very very few of the previous discussions led to delete. In fact I don't remember a then-current finalist on the show having their article deleted while on the show. So it is a new precedent. --User:Woohookitty ^{Diamming fool!} 08:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

We don't do precedent in this way for this kind of thing. I can only close an AfD based on the discussion itself, the applicable policies, and WP:BLP where appropriate. AfD isn't a court of law where each new ruling can change the way the rules are enforced. It's true that this may overall lead to inconsistency in application, but I suppose our method is predicated on the idea of small samples of the community commenting at AfD being representative of the whole, which would ideally lead to consistency overall. In reality, this doesn't work.

Our only thing close to "precedent" is policies and guidelines, which document our practices as a community. In the case of policy, these essentially have to be enforced, whilst guidelines offer a little leeway. That's why policy and guidelines will always trump any standard determined by a WikiProject - they can't claim to be representative of the community as a whole, whilst policies and guidelines essentially are. So I'm not overly concerned about "precedent", just about the consensus of the deletion discussion, closed in accordance with WP:DGFA. If you have any further questions or comments, please drop me a line Fritzpoll (talk) 08:50, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate that as a fellow admin but honestly, that's going to make my life much harder. :) The AI articles are extremely difficult to keep ahold of as it is but now we're going to get a whole bunch more AfD requests. And not only that but I guarantee you that many will try to recreate the Grace article (though as an admin, I will say that making it a redirect is the right call. It's what's always been done in the past when AI articles have been deleted). But you are correct. We aren't supposed to do precedent for this kind of thing, but many admins do, right or wrong. That's partially why I got out of the AfD closing business. It was way too murky for me on this kind of stuff. So you made the right call by policy but my non-admin side ain't happy about it. :-D

Anyway. I appreciate the response. If you could put the Grace article on your watchlist (if you haven't already), that'd be wonderful. Because as I said, people will try to recreate the article. I won't push this issue any further. I can't say I can argue with your reasoning. --User:Woohookitty ^{Diamming fool!} 08:58, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I will watch out for it, and Im sorry that AfD has made the job you do in any way more difficult. Fritzpoll (talk) 09:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I was being half serious. I've been here long enough (4 1/2 years) to handle a little trouble. :) --User:Woohookitty ^{Diamming fool!} 15:42, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Heh, I've not been here as long, but I've had my fair share of scrapes too. I'm sure this will be no different Fritzpoll (talk) 15:53, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

List of Myer stores

Why did you close this as delete? There was not a consensus either way - you should have closed this as "no consensus". Why are you moderators so biased. You did not read my comment and those other people who called for this to be kept. Please overturn this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by lonelygirl16 (talk • contribs)

Not sure who this is, but here goes: Depends on your defintion of consensus, really. I follow WP:CONSENSUS, and in deletion, I follow the deletion guidelines for administrators, which says that consensus is about the strength of the arguments, not the number of votes cast. I need you to be more specific about why you think this is "no consensus" before I can answer you more effectively. I suspect you only think that I'm biased because the close went against your view, which is a perfectly understandable reaction - if you have grounds for such an accusation, however, I would be happy to consider them Fritzpoll (talk) 08:55, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

my grounds are that you didn't properly consider the keep votes. it doesn't matter so much what the policy says when people put forward good ideas like merging, etc. but yet you just go ahead and delete the page so we can't even get it back to work it into something better in the end. you're also from the UK so you will fail to understand what myer actually is. it is not just an average supermarket, it is a department store which only has so many stores in australia and has a significant history (in different places), hence the list of stores. you haven't even interacted with people or asked them questions as to why or why not, just made a decision on what you think in your own opinion is good, never mind anyone else. that is why you are biased. i'm thankful thought that you have taken the time to respond kindly, which can't be said for Arnzy below or Hesperian on the other page. thank you.

I fear you have made a mistake. I am not meant to interact in the debate - I am only meant to read what is there and weigh the arguments accordingly. Most of the things I read on Wikipedia are things I have never seen or heard - that does not make me biased in considering them; if anything it makes me even more neutral than you are. :) The Myers stores still have an article, so it's not like all available information has been scrubbed. Finally, I am willing to userfy on request. Alternatively, you may wish to consider a deletion review, which cna overturn my close. Fritzpoll (talk) 13:22, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

AFD is not a vote either. But if you counted the "votes", there were more calls for deletes than keeps, but based on the arguments presented the reasons were stronger to delete. --[[::User:Arnzy|Arnzy]] ([[::User talk:Arnzy|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Arnzy|contribs]]) 12:21, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

but it was not overwhelming calling for delete. you are wrong. why are you intruding on this conversation anyway? I'm asking fritzpoll not you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by lonelygirl16 (talk • contribs)

Last time I counted it was 10 delete, 6 keeps. But the number of votes is not the point here. --[[::User:Arnzy|Arnzy]] ([[::User talk:Arnzy|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Arnzy|contribs]]) 00:15, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Alexis Grace.

Fine. How do I go about nominating the other twelve finalists for deletion, as well as all previous Top 12 finalists who don't have notable careers?

To me, it seems rather ridiculous. Especially if she cracks the Top 5 or beyond. The page will just be recreated. What's the point of eliminating just her right now?--Cinemaniac86^Oy_gevalt. 15:16, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

You tell me. I just close deletion discussions according to the consensus established. I don't think you need to nominate them for deletion - the equivalent action to what I've done today would be to replace each of the articles with #REDIRECT [[American Idol (season 8)]]. Of course, if you wish, you can follow the directions at WP:AFD, and make a multiple listing. Best wishes, Fritzpoll (talk) 15:18, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Would you mind if I restore the history of Alexis Grace, pre-deletion? There's really no reason not to have it, since 1) the article is redirected and 2) there's a 99.9999% chance it will be recreated, and having the history in that case is best for GFDL concerns. Cheers, Hermione1980 17:05, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes. The consensus of the AfD was to delete - I added the redirect independently of my decision to delete. The history can be restored if a reason is given for recreation Fritzpoll (talk) 17:07, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

What's ridiculous was deleting her article in the first place. At the rate she's going, she's probably going to finish no lower than seven and after that there's a career waiting for her in music so its unfair that her article is deleted now.--23prootie (talk) 18:58, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Then I'm sure she'll become more notable in time, and be able to have her own article. I don't make the rules, I don't make the consensus: I just have to make a decision about what it is. Fritzpoll (talk) 19:06, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I hope your still alive cause the discussion at the talk page of American Idol season 8 is now really long. And that's just the first day. I hope you have a lot of patience cause this is going to be a long season.--23prootie (talk) 22:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Shouldn't be too problematic for me - I'm only a janitor. Fritzpoll (talk) 23:01, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

As an aside, you might want to read WP:SCRABBLE. We don't have articles on things that might not meet our requirements for inclusion now, just because they might meet the requirements for inclusion at some time in the future. If Alexis goes on to sign a record deal and has a single in the charts, that's the right time to create an article. And of course we'll happily provide the old deleted text to help form the article. Fundamentally though, someone doesn't become notable just because they participated in a television contest. The contest is just a single event, a news story, or topical discussion. If the show becomes the launchpad for a future career that's picked up by the press, that's when we should be enlarging the scope of the article. Let the person's career develop first, then the article will follow. Not the other way around. Hope this helps. Gazimoff 23:07, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

• Now FP has chosen to use his tools to enforce his opinion that the article doesn't belong. He's protected Alexis Grace, so that only administrators can edit it. Brilliant work! H₂O Shipper 23:33, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

• No, that is standard procedure for articles where there is an issue with them being re-created against consensus, we even have a speedy deletion criteria for it at WP:CSD#G4. You should go to WP:DRV to re-create the article. MBisanz ^talk 23:38, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

  No, I'm a writer, not a procedure-wonk. This is absolutely f---ing ludicrous. H₂O Shipper 23:41, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Why would you delete the article on Alexis Grace, based on just the few comments on the second AFD, while completly ignoring the 1st AFD? There was overwhelming consensus to keep. Based on both AFD discussions, there are still more editors who wish to keep the article. It just doesn't make any sense. Why? Why? Why?--Jojhutton (talk) 03:14, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

He's very robotic in what he does. He's not gonna listen.--23prootie (talk) 03:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I closed the first one at keep and this looks like a valid deletion. Really the next step is WP:Requests for undeletion. MBisanz ^talk 03:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Both AFDs together have more keeps than deletes. It just make any sense. This should have been resolved the first time, but some want to game the system.--Jojhutton (talk) 03:38, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

AFD is not a vote. Instead, consensus is reached based on the strength of arguments. If it's clear that an article doesn't meet Wikipedia's policies for inclusion, it doesn't matter how much you may like it as it still fails to meet policy and should be removed. Any local wikiproject rules you may have cannot be trumped by Wikipedia's wider policies, as we have minimum standards for inclusion that have to be met regardless. When developing articles, it is important to bear this in mind and almost always better to start from a robust collection of sources first, as to do otherwise means that the article you build is on an unsteady foundation and may ultimately be deleted. If you feel that the wider policies should not apply to your articles you are of course welcome to argue that, but that would be more of a debate with the community and not something suitable for a user's talk page. Many thanks, Gazimoff 07:12, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

This is bull. The only time AFD is not a vote is when the administrator wanting to delete (or keep) the article disagrees with the numbers. At best, combining the two discussions, there is not any type of consensus for deletion. This whole mess smacks of the policy wonks and deletionists flexing their administrative muscles against the puny little plain ol' editors. Yeah, we don't have the tools necessary to keep our writing on the project, so screw us, right? H₂O Shipper 11:22, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

It's actually fairly clear that AfD is not a vote. This section on the AFD page specifically describes it as such. This template is occasionally used to reinforce the fact that it is not a vote, but a discussion. Finally, WP:POLL is the overarching guideline that states that polls should not take the place of discussion. It's not wonkery, it's there in black and white. If you choose not to follow them when creating articles, you shouldn't be surprised if their existence is challenged. Administrators are here to interpret AfD discussions according to consensus based on how the articles meet the policies for inclusion, nothing more. You have all the tools you need to keep an article - the ability to find good quality, reliable secondary sources and the ability to edit pages and add these sources. Gazimoff 11:48, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Utter nonsense. You have the tools to read the article I wrote on Grace. It had five separate reliable sources. It was fairly well-written. Many (if not most) of our stubs are of far less quality. Yet it's deleted, protected, and those of us puny little editors without your fancy tools can't even see the work anymore. What a joke this place is becoming. H₂O Shipper 03:09, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Response from Fritzpoll

I was asleep/away from the computer until now, so have only just had time to review the messages here and in my e-mail inbox about this. First off, I am not a deletionist - I have argued with many admins off-wiki about deletions in the past, one of whom is defending me on this very page. I'm also pretty certain that I've been accused of bias for closing AfDs as keep, delete, and redirect, which I hope indicates someone who is a little more neutral than people here would give me credit for.
I close deletion discussions according to the deletion guidelines for administrators. There is no provision for considering the opinions of prior AfDs, or DRVs. This is fair, because consensus can change - and if the opinion still stands, it is presumed that it will come up again during the course of the discussion. Consequently, I closed the AfD based solely on what was discussed during those five days. I have subsequently read the previous AfD and DRV, but they cannot, and should not, play a part in a new deletion discussion. Those who believe this to be wrong should look to amend our policies and guidelines on this.
I have reviewed my close once or twice as a result of a series of emails and off-wiki and on-wiki conversations, and I cannot interpret it any other way. Badgering me about it isn't going to help. There are appropriate forums for this kind of review.
I have also reviewed the allegations of administrative abuse against me - I am not above reproach, and when presented with a good point or argument I will change my stance on something. In this instance, it centres on two points: that I abusively deleted the page because of bias, etc. and then abusively protected it as part of a content dispute.
On the first point...I didn't. That's all I can say really. I had no opinion on American Idol when closing the AfD, I have no particular stance on the subject. That's it. Subsequent to my closure, I received a couple of e-mails commenting on "precedents" for retention, the inconsistency of only having one article deleted. When another user, who had vehemently opposed deletion and recreated the article twice, nominated all the other finalists for deletion, I saw an opportunity for this issue to be resolved, so I commented at the debates that redirection of these articles was the preferable course, and offered the opinion that deletion was an alternative. I never had then, nor have I now, any intention on administrating over the deletion of those articles - such an action would rightly lead me to be hauled up by the community.
Over the course of yesterday, the article was recreated several times, and deleted by me per the appropriate speedy deletion criterion. The recreation, and stated intention to recreate the material despite my suggestion of taking it for deletion review, led me to believe that protection afforded the best course to minimise discruption to the encyclopedia. The question is, was this abuse? Even on reflection, I believe not. If any user honestly believes that I have abused my administrative priviledges in this manner, the appropriate venue for discussion is at WP:AN or WP:AN/I. Alternatively, any user may wish to review WP:DR and determine the appropriate course of action, up to and including arbitration.
When someone wishes to recreate the article, all they have to do is come to me and discuss the reasons why, to make sure that it is not substantially similar to the copy deleted by consensus.
In this (lengthy!) text, I have offered my detractors a series of options to pursue me further through the avenues of dispute resolution. There is also the option for us to all just calm down, and cease the ad hominem attacks - we are all here to produce the best encyclopedia possible. To do that, we have policies and guidelines to assist, and people (like me) to enforce some of them: our actions here are always likely to upset one side or the other. If you don't like a policy being enforced, change the policy. Perhaps we should all take a deep breath, and enjoy a refreshing beverage often consumed in my home country. Fritzpoll (talk) 15:52, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

wow, you sound like a lawyer or a politician. Perhaps you could put it in more laymens terms for the rest of us. I think that you may have bit off more than you can chew on this one. This isn't your normal deletion discussion, with just a single editor (usually the author) wanting to keep. This seems to have ticked off an entire community of editors. Most of whom had no idea that a second Afd was opened.--Jojhutton (talk) 17:25, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Not sure in what sense I've "bitten off more that I can chew". Being short and to the point has not helped me so far, so I tried a more thorough explanation. Which parts would you like explained? Fritzpoll (talk) 17:27, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I think you've made your case well, Fritzpoll. This page is not the appropriate venue for those who disagree with the decision to debate it endlessly. There are pages specifically for that. As such, I think it may be best if you just let the comments stand without acknowledgment from this point on, Fritzpoll. Nothing constructive will come from those who go by policy debating with those who would prefer to make unnecessary exceptions for subjects they like. ₳dam Zel 18:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. I'm a believer in admin accountability, but perhaps I'll respond simply to comments/questions that are new on this page, and that I haven't covered above. I'd hate to make a blanket exclusion of people from this page. Fritzpoll (talk) 18:33, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

• There's nothing even resembling "accountability" here. It doesn't matter to those who have end-ran this to get it deleted. Now FP is spinning and lawyering, making certain that he defends his deletion (and now protection) come what may. This whole mess really discourages those of us who -- GASP! -- only enjoy writing articles, and don't particularly care for the "inside baseball" that AFD, DRV, and all that crap has devolved into. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Watershipper (talk • contribs) 03:05, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
  • I've given you your routes out of this - I know you're upset, I even vaguely understand why. I just don't understand why I am the _target of your displeasure. Simply saying it doesn't make it so. Fritzpoll (talk) 12:10, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

    Yes, we all understand that you've explained our "legal options", in lieu of simply doing what makes sense, and restoring a well-referenced, well-written article. Instead you're lawyering, protecting the page(s) from creation, and refusing to acknowledge that it makes more common sense (not wiki-legal sense, but "common" sense) to actually notify those who participated at the first AFD. I know you didn't HAVE to do so before deleting the article, but you certainly SHOULD have. And I've grown weary of your saying, "But I didn't HAVE to according to the rules", so if that's going to be your only non-response response, please just ignore this note, as you don't seem to really give a flying f--k what this whole mess does to those of us who write and maintain these type of well-referenced stubs. H₂O Shipper 14:27, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

    Ok Fritzpoll (talk) 17:19, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

• I'm kinda thinking that this event may be foreshadowing a victory for Alexis. It's weird, I know but maybe this was not a bad thing after all. Anyway, I hope her the best of luck. Hope she goes far in music.--23prootie (talk) 00:53, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Airi & meiri

Good close. What a mess. Bearian (talk) 17:09, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

The orange bar, the edit summary...."Oh no!", I thought,"what vengeance will be wrought for this latest closure of mine".  :) Nice to see a friendly message! Yeah, very messy - the article needs a good scrub too Fritzpoll (talk) 17:11, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I see you were having trouble. Reminds me something of the twins Fuk Mi and Fuk U Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 21:01, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

You know, I seriously looked at that thinking "What unfortunate names". You prankster, you Fritzpoll (talk) 12:14, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Your bot needed to add referenced data

Fritz I need your bot to add data from a given source to all the unreferenced articles we have on the districts of Vietnam. PLease see the referenced sentences I;ve been adding to places like Buôn Đôn District. I have a great number to do and I could sure use your bot to add them for me. What I need is for you to process the data here and insert the data into those referenced sentences for each article. Basically the sentences here from "As of 2003 to ref list" need adding for each district and preferably read the population, area and capital figures placed in the correct places. Would you be able to help me out? You did say that you would be up for some cleanup tasks, these are pretty beneficial ones as they are districts with a 1000 or so square kilometres and mostly one liners. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 22:22, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I'm on it. Will code up the task later and submit it for approval Fritzpoll (talk) 17:34, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I could sure use your help on it. I didn;t know though if you ever planned on using the bot again. What I am doing is gradually adding an infobox and translation template to the articles too, the translation template is a bridge to further expansion of the article later. I have also begun making some maps to improve the articles. See Đắk Glei District for instance. If a bot could add an infobox too to any districts I haven't got to so far this would greatly relieve the repetitive edits I would have to do and allow me to try to expand from Vietnamese wiki. I think it is a task that should be cleaned up by a bot rather than manually. Somebody has to develop these one liners into something more substantial! Basically all our articles should have the basics like Buôn Đôn District rather than Hoành Bồ District! Would it be possible for the bot to add something like this. Make all of the articles consistent bascially restarting them with adequate details. I've drawn up nav templates by region all that would need to change would be whatever province it is in and data. You can view the templates at Category:Vietnam district templates Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 18:50, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Re: Kenwood, St. George's Hill

Hi, I'm getting some PA and hassle from an unregistered user, concerning this page and the cleanup tag I placed on it several days ago. From the tone of his recent (unsigned) talk-page post, he's either tangled with me before, didn't like the results, and is now trying to send accusations through a sockpuppet, or just doesn't play well with others in the first place. I don't need it, either way. Mind taking a look into the matter... and this rambling article's GA status (which I really don't think it deserves)? Thanks. Zephyrad (talk) 02:59, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

BTW... I was invited several years ago to join the Beatles Wikiproject; I politely declined, because I knew it would mean dealing with Beatles fans, who let fandom override common sense and objectivity. (And I wasn't wrong, as has been proven time and again.) Zephyrad (talk) 03:16, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll take a look now Fritzpoll (talk) 12:14, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Copies of Deleted Articles

If you could be so kind as to provide copies of several deleted pages, I would be very much grateful. Basically, I'd just like all the pages listed on here. I am not the original author, but if required I can have the original author give his consent.

Thanks, looking forward to your reply.

AJDotNet (talk) 14:52, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm just following up on this. I'd at least like some acknowledgment from someone about recovering these articles. I posted something on Splash's talk page a week ago and have received no acknowledgment from him/her. If there is a procedure you guys must go through that takes a while, I understand and apologize for nagging. I'd just like to know that you guys have gotten my request. If there is something else I am required to do to obtain copies of said articles, tell me what that is. My purpose for wanting these articles is to archive them on another site, as they do not meet your notability requirements. As I stated before, I am not the original author, but an acquaintance of his. If he is the only one who is able to retrieve these articles, let me know and I will have him contact you.

Thanks again, and I hope these articles can be retrieved.

AJDotNet (talk) 01:46, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

The current MfD for the page that Yvonne Bradley became

Fritzpoll, I was asked by User:PJHaseldine to look at other matters, and I noticed the MfD and then the prior AfD, which you closed as a Merge, which I normally consider a form of Keep, since it essentially leaves the article in place, and, unless the redirect is protected, it remains as an ordinary editorial decision. One step up, usually done only if necessary, is protecting the redirect.

I'm concerned that the MfD has created more fuss than necessary. I've been advising PJH as to how to approach matters less disruptively, and I've already told him that his filing of the MfD was inappropriate, given that your net decision (the userification and new redirect) was likely to lead to a fairly speedy return of the article.

I think that he really did not understand the situation, he's been a bit beset elsewhere. I think that he would withdraw the nomination if he's confident that you will restore the article with reasonable improvements such that it's not likely to set up a reasonably contentious AfD in the future. If he withdraws the nomination, someone can speedy close it, and avoid any further unnecessary disruption. While I do have some suggestions as to what, specifically, you could do, I'm not convinced that they would be much of an improvement over what you will naturally do to even be worth suggesting.

Okay, you twisted my arm. (Actually, I mentioned to PJH that I'd make a suggestion, and I did have something more specific in mind than what I've written above.) You could return to the Merge decision and leave it at that. Anyone can edit an unprotected redirected article. If it's not clear that it's ready for prime time yet, it's just a matter of restoring the redirect. (Actually, can a redirect be placed at the top of an article that's still in place? The tags and categories have already been poked out, but that's easy to fix later.) And I'm sure, given the original AfD, that if there were sources added showing personal notability, in your judgment, you'd have no problem with an edit removing the redirect. Have I read you correctly?

As to the article in its present state (as it sits in user space), I have no opinion, and I'm avoiding forming one. See, if the nomination is withdrawn, I'm still neutral, and I could then close the MfD as a non-admin closure, and I really doubt that anyone would reopen it. But someone else might beat me to it, which would be fine. --Abd (talk) 21:45, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for coming to chat about this - I'm hopeful that you can educate PJHaseldine a little in these matters, since someone he can view as a neutral party is more likely to have success in this arena. I am sure you mean to refer to the DRV rather than the MfD (an unfortunate and unnecessary step taken by another editor on the userspace copy). I am content to leave the structure as you describe in place - a userfied copy in Geo Swan's space, and a redirect that aids reader navigation. I will state (hopefully unambiguously) that I am happy to move the userfied copy back to article space provided that it is not substantially similar to the original copy. For this to be the case, I feel it would be the least disruptive if personal notability, beyond that which was determined at the AfD to be somehow inherited from the event she partook in, can be established. I will even do the merge of the history, and defend my decision at the inevitable DRV/repeat AfD. I hope this is as clear as can be, but I am willing and open to further questions that you, or PJHaseldine, may have. I only ask that those asking questions have open minds as to the respinse they can hope to receive. Best wishes, Fritzpoll (talk) 22:01, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the DRV. I do have a further suggestion. The article has been edited since you moved it to userspace. I'm not going to express an opinion on it, because I have not reviewed it in detail and in comparing it to the AfD and DRV comments. However, if it is your opinion that the article is now sufficiently ready for mainspace -- it doesn't have to be perfect! -- then you could shortcircuit the whole DRV process by simply restoring it as sufficiently improved to have tipped your decision in the first place. Do know, please, that I think your original close was completely proper and well-designed to minimize fuss, while paving the way to the return of the article if it were fixed, and it is only PJH's naivete that led to further problems. He seems to be responding well, by all signs. He is, at least, listening and acknowledging my comments, which truly disruptive editors usually will not do, they get angry at anyone so arrogantly daring to offer them advice, when, obviously, it's everyone else who is the problem. You know, of course, that I won't stop at telling him about his mistakes. Those mistakes happened in a context, which I'll eventually get to. --Abd (talk) 22:25, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I've been monitoring the changes to the article. The sourcing is somewhat improved - but it's not there yet, unfortunately, otherwise I would bypass the process as you suggest, or at least substantially change my contribution to it. The DRV is a shame, as a closure to endorse the AfD result may harden the minds of those who would want the article permanently deleted, making subsequent recreation....problematic from the point of view of more processes, calls for my blood, etc. :) Fritzpoll (talk) 22:49, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

It's tricky. Endorse or Overturn. Endorse leaves it in your hands, not a problem as far as I'm concerned. Remember my philosophy about administrative responsibility. What is your decision, you can change. Overturn returns the article to status quo, likewise would do what some have asked for, i.e., No Consensus, and then anyone can Merge it anyway, dealing with it as an ordinary editorial action, and dealing with conflict, if it arises, following WP:DR. Keep would of course do the same. A rank Delete decision seems unlikely to me, but given that this would effectively be a new decision, my opinion is that it could be then taken back to DRV when ready, if the new closer wouldn't voluntarily decide on a return. Meanwhile the article would stay as it is, with the redirect to the defendant's article. That all this has pretty much the same outcome is one reason why I criticized the editor for filing the DRV in the first place. Much ado about very little. He's probably asleep now, I'd guess, this may all clear up in the morning.

I wouldn't worry, if I were you, about calls for your blood. I see nothing remotely worthy of the guillotine, quite the contrary, the subject closure was just fine, even brilliant, given the state of the AfD. There is no such thing as permanent deletion (well, there is, but it's not at all in the cards here). Status quo: article is in user space, and it's safe there right now. If the editor withdraws the nomination, the DRV will close as withdrawn, almost certainly, and then, with your assistance, I assume, the article will either be brought into condition to return, or later, with the article having been given its best suit of clothes, it will return to DRV. This much is obvious: the worst conclusion regarding the article that would seem reasonable to me, having read the article itself, is that notability is marginal, and might be just below the level for Keep. So an improved article, better than the original AfD dealt with, is quite likely to be kept with some new process. As I noted, I haven't reviewed the specific arguments being made, but the community isn't stupid, it's merely asleep sometimes. I trust that, in the long run, with proper preparation, it will make the right decision. And I think that you have set up conditions for that to happen. PJH likewise made what I think is a good move: he asked for my help. You know and I think he knows that I'm not going to intervene to try to make happen what he wants, but rather to facilitate better process, starting with advising him to stop stirring up shit. This little affair is minor compared to some other stuff. --Abd (talk) 02:36, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Barnstar of Diligent Deletion

		The Barnstar of Diligence
		For your diligence in making certain that Alexis Grace stays deleted (for all intents and purposes), and your prevention of any editor actually re-creating the article, which would have been a travesty. H2O Shipper 00:05, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

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