Wikipedia talk:Requested moves

Bishōjo game

See talk:Bishōjo game#Requested move

I believe this was improperly closed as "no consensus". The reason given was "No consensus in English-language publications" which is not how WP:COMMONNAME is applied. There is no method in the mainspace I can see to formally request a discussion on this closing so I'm bringing it up here. While its true in academic circles there is no consensus, we don't just consider academic sources; we aren't some kind of snobbish encylcopedia. When more mainstream sources are considered, there is a more general usage of not using the macron (and I'm talking beyond sites dedicated to anime/manga/video games).

If there was another more complex reason for coming up with that, I would appreciate JHunterJ to explain how he came up with the idea that there is no consensus and therefore we completely ignore the 2 most used names under WP:COMMONNAME in favor of the least used. It seems to me like otherwise if the alternate was used "bishoujo" (the request was to move to title "bishojo") then it would be closed for the same reason thereby having a guideline hold hostage policy because neither naming sceme can ever be found to have a clear majority, but both together consitute an overwhelming majority.∞陣内Jinnai 19:54, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

It wasn't closed as "no consensus". It was closed as "not moved". The reason that it wasn't moved is because there is no consensus on the diacritic use in English-language sources (since the term including all of its variants is not widely used in English sources), so by both WP:NC(UE) and the WikiProject Japan's guidelines, the macron is used. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:59, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

But it is in fact used widely (at least in terms for the genre title of the article). It has become increasingly more common as more sources have been using (as the more recent search for RSes using any related term for bishojo game has shown) beyond even niche sites like Anime News Network.∞陣内Jinnai 20:33, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, NC(UE) is subordinate to TITLE. You are asserting a guideline is above a title, ie that 2 common English names exist, though neither is clearly a consenus, use the least one per guidelines and ignore policy which says to use the common one and if there is not a clear indication which is the most common, don't default to one that clearly isn't among the most used ones.∞陣内Jinnai 18:25, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

WP:TITLE: "If there are too few English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject [...] If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader." I am asserting no such thing about guidelines or policies. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:56, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I guess you have a very unusual definition of "few" to my eyes then.∞陣内Jinnai 18:58, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

What's your definition of "few" then? Hit counts in the low 3 digits looks like few among the millions of English-language documents indexed, yes, to my eyes. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

JHunterJ, if I had been closing this I would have followed a slightly different process, although I don't think in this case it would result in a different outcome. As requested move was not for an article called Bishōjo but for Bishōjo game, the search by Kauffner is not relevant. I do not think you are interpreting the "no established usage correctly", I see that reserved for cases where little or no information exists in English for something (eg the name of the highest peak in Ruritania is probably only available in Ruritainian sources), I would instead interpreted this as "divided usage in English-language sources". Using the suggestion in WP:NC(UE)

In general, the sources in the article, a Google book search of books published in the last quarter-century or thereabouts, and a selection of other encyclopaedias, should all be examples of reliable sources; if all three of them use a term, then that is fairly conclusive. If one of those three diverges from agreement then more investigation will be needed. If there is no consensus in the sources, either form will normally be acceptable as a title.

I think we can put aside "other encyclopaedias" in this case. Looking at the sources used in the article and the returns of Google books and scholar, (with a brief look) it seems to me that the usage is divided, so (if further analysis confirmed my brief look), I would have closed this as "no consensus in the sources, either form will normally be acceptable as a title" and stick with the last stable title for the article which is Bishōjo game. -- PBS (talk) 23:32, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

That sounds at least a better reason, though I'd argue that that the links I posted on the talk page (all of which are considered RSes by WP:Anime and WP:VG for a topic like that should be a factor too (sometimes they may not be included because of only passing mention which while it would be a RS, would be removed normally as trivial or incidental). If one takes those into account (and I did my best to be neutral going out of my way to find RSes with macron usage) then I believe things would be different.∞陣内Jinnai 23:41, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

You may have a point, but I think you should now be able to see how the process of selecting a name works. Cases like these it is often a matter of judgement and in this case until a clear majority of reliable English language sources coalesce around one term, the article is likely to remain where it is (as the default RM action is not to move). Come back to it in a year, have another look at the literature, and if you think there has been a substantial shift in usage, then you can always post another RM. -- PBS (talk) 01:58, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

That's the issue: I believe their is a trend I can document around an increasing usage of two terms "bishojo game" and "bishoujo game" (and a growing but much lesser "gal game"), but given that there is no consensus of translation conventions it will likely never have 1 clear dominant one, just imo become increasingly less commonly used with a macron.∞陣内Jinnai 05:03, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

For various reasons there was no consensus to move. The case was not made well. Flaky evidence was presented, like Kauffner's counts of Google books hits, which if you click through and look you'll notice that the book OCR pretty much ignores the macron; 5 of the first 10 books that he said didn't have it in fact do. You need to make a better case than this when you want to claim that the less correct version should be accepted over the more correct version. Dicklyon (talk) 06:36, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. However, I think too much emphasis is/was being placed on those google results. That isn't the main evidence I was presenting and those hits cannot be confirmed to be reliable or not (being published in a book doesn't mean its automatically a RS; there is something called vanity press).∞陣内Jinnai 06:40, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

See #Displacing edit histories section above: probably a similar case

Hi all. Regarding the situation described above (Canadian Comics etc.), I have a similar case. The articles in question are Brighton and User:Hassocks5489/Brighton, a userspace draft. At some point, I will be looking to move content from the draft into mainspace. Only I have edited the userspace draft. Looking at the discussion above, there are some different views on what should be done in these circumstances; has any consensus been reached on what the best approach is? Thanks for your advice. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 13:43, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, because only you have edited your userspace draft, you can cut and paste the content to Brighton without any problem regarding attribution for licensing. In fact, if you have used anything at all substantial from the existing article in your draft (I haven't checked), you should cut and paste, so as not to compromise the edit history at Brighton. If you're still concerned, you might want to ask Wikipedia:Media copyright questions, perhaps referencing this page. Station1 (talk) 07:50, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I concur with Station. To add to what he has said, a histmerge could not be done because there are already parallel histories and I don't think displacing the original history would be in the best interests of the article (it would look very odd if it appeared that Brighton had been created in September 2011). As Station says, because you are the sole contributor to the draft, there would be no attribution concerns if you just copy/paste, so that would be my advice as well. Jenks24 (talk) 08:35, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks for your replies. I'll do as you have suggested. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 22:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

No punishment for a sock master?

Could someone tell me why the vote of an editor who used sock puppets on a move request still counts in it? Am I the only one who believes that the sock master should be punished by not being allowed to take part in the move? --Lecen (talk) 12:02, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

See wp:SOCK—perhaps the socker should be blocked? It's usually hard for blocked editors to participate in RMs. This isn't the place to try to get someone blocked for socking, though. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:38, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

The sock master was already blocked but the adminsitrator who blocked him said that his vote (but not of his sock puppets) was valid. This is something that I can't understand. --Lecen (talk) 18:59, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, in theory it isn't a vote but a discussion of evidence and examination of guidelines. If the sockmaster has raised a valid point about evidence or guidelines, then it is still a valid point. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 19:04, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

f/F

There's something needs sorting out (I think); it may have been discussed before, and this may not be the place however. Do let me know.

Pulp fiction and Pulp Fiction are two separate pages, one a dab for the term 'pulp fiction' and the other the film. This strikes me as less than ideal. pablo 17:28, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not unusual to have two pages that differ only slightly due to capitalization, punctuation or pluralization. See WP:PRECISION and WP:CAPS#Page names that only differ by capitalization. It makes sense in this case because someone searching for or linking to "Pulp Fiction" is more likely expecting the popular movie, while someone searching for or linking to "pulp fiction", which is not properly a name, might be looking for something else. In either case there are prominent links at each page to help get the minority where they want to go. Station1 (talk) 20:39, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. pablo 13:00, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Missing discussion

I think I screwed up somehow and the move request that I posted on Wikipedia talk:GLAM/SI#Let's move project pages and categories to standard names isn't listed on WP:RM. Hmm. Disavian (talk) 08:02, 22 February 2012 (UTC)