Talk:Nio (Buddhism)

Correct Names

According to the version of this page on the Japanese wikipedia, the naming of these statues is incorrect. "Kongourikishi" is actually the name used for both statues, both open-mouthed (a-gyou) and closed-mouthed (un-gyou) versions. "Shukongoushin" is actually a different type of statue; while it depicts the same deity, "Shukongoushin" is a lone armor-clad warrior, as opposed to the two more common shirtless figures. It also goes on to state that Toudaiji Temple has special, individually-named versions: "a-gyou" is called "Kongourikishi" while "un-gyou" is called "Misshakurikishi". Finally, perhaps becoming irrelevant to the English-language version by this point, the Thousand-Armed Goddess Kanon has two more Niou variants in her "family" named "Naraenkengou" (open-mouthed) and "Misshakukongourikishi".

Because I'm just reading this information from the (presumably more accurate, for obvious reasons) Japanese version of the page, I don't have any real source or verification for this (imagine an encyclopedia citing itself!), so rather than making the changes (and editing all the related pages) myself, I'm just leaving this note for more thorough/less lazy persons. My apologies if this is bad form.

As an aside, it also says that "Niou" can be written with the characters "仁王" (Benevolent Kings) or "二王" (Two Kings). The English entry for Kongourikishi has "仁王" translated as "Two Kings", which isn't 100% wrong as such but it is the wrong translation for that particular character.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.29.92.4 (talk • contribs) 16:03, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info! I'll try to get a verification of that. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 16:10, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Terminology corrections made according to ja:金剛力士 and cited sources. See also [1] [2] [3] [4] for examples in English. —  AjaxSmack  07:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Merge

This was mentioned previously. All sources indicate that "Kongorikishi" and "Shukongoshin" are essentially the same thing and not the difference between "Agyō" and "Ungyō." I suggest that the two articles be merged into Nio and then perhaps separate pages could be made for Agyō and Ungyō. Sudachi 06:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

NiO is Nickel oxide too

--Smokefoot 02:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Additional info

Tōdaiji note

Ungyō and Agyō at Tōdaiji, from 1203, restored 1988–92. Made from 3800 and 4200 pieces of wood, respectively. Agyō damaged in 1567 when Tōdaiji buildings burned by Matsudaga Hisahide; musketball from that time recovered from shoulder during restoration. Each weighs about two tonnes.

Kabuki

The depiction of the niō influenced the style of the aragoto (rough) characters in kabuki.

Devas?

According to my electronic dictionary, 「仁王」is simply the Japanese translation for "Deva". Can anyone confirm this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.180.148.27 (talk • contribs) 00:20, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Hercules

I have removed the following, very questionable material from the page:

Hellenistic influence

Kongōrikishi are an interesting case of the possible transmission of the image of the Greek hero Heracles to the East Asia along the Silk Road. Heracles was used in Greco-Buddhist art to represent Vajrapani, the protector of the Buddha (See also Image), and his representation was then used in China and Japan to depict the protector gods of Buddhist temples. This transmission is part of the wider Greco-Buddhist syncretic phenomenon, where Buddhism interacted with the Hellenistic culture of Central Asia from the 4th century BC to the 4th century AD.

Iconographical evolution from the Greek Heracles to Shukongōshin. From left to right:
1) Herakles (Louvre Museum).
2) Heracles on coin of Greco-Bactrian king Demetrius I.
3 Vajrapani, the protector of the Buddha, depicted as Herakles in the Greco-Buddhist art of Gandhara.
4) Shukongōshin of Buddhist temples in Japan.

I think this section needs more than one source for such a claim. The author of the given source could be the only person who thinks images of the Nio are based on that of Hercules. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 23:37, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Very very late reply, but I ran across this idea in The Mummies of Urumchi by Elizabeth Wayland Barber, in the context of cultural exchange along the Silk Road. Can't give a page number right now; the book is in a box somewhere. But there are multiple sources available for the idea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.170.190.61 (talk) 04:38, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Even later observation: This article is still in the Category:Heracles - but does not mention Heracles in its text at all - that's kind of confusing, moreso if one is coming to the Nio article from the Hercules one. Also in the Heracles article as of today it is stated that Heracles' symbolism is found in Nio deities. -- marilyn.hanson (talk) 00:06, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Name

Is there a commonly used non-Japanese word available? The Korean word is Inwang (인왕, 仁王). It would seem odd to use this Japanese word in the context of Korean or Chinese temples. Waygugin (talk) 13:26, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Another image

Would it be them too? (Portrayed on the doors of a Hokkien community center in Melaka)

Would this also be a portrayal of the two 仁王? Vmenkov (talk) 03:37, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

The name

Calling the particular deity as Nio is simply incorrect. That is very biased in favor of Japanese culture, as if the entity came from Japan itself. And the statue of Heracles having influence on the sculpture of this guy is simply incorrect. That is only based on speculation and it has nothing to do with the deity itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.92.74.153 (talk) 06:51, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• Guhyapada (密迹金剛 Miji Jingang) - Huayan Temple; Datong, Shanxi, China.jpg
• Narayana (那羅延金剛 Naluoyan Jingang) - Huayan Temple; Datong, Shanxi, China.jpg
• Statue of the Two Vajra Warriors (金刚力士 Jinggang Lishi) or Nio (仁王 Renwang) - Guhyapada (密跡金剛 Miji Jinggang) and Narayana (Naluoyan Tian) in Tze Shan Monastery (慈山寺 Císhànsì) in Hong Kong.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:21, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Changing article title to Niō?

Would anyone be opposed to changing the article title to Niō instead of current "Nio"? Would match other articles that have Japanese-language titles. Fredlesaltique (talk) 02:21, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Changing the title name "Nio" to a more appropriate name?

Statues of this particular deity figure appear in not only Japanese temples, but also Chinese and Korean temples as well. Using only the Japanese name as the title may reflect a bias because the deity is neither unique to Japanese religion or mythology nor did it originate in Japan specifically. I propose we use a more neutral term that reflects the actual real-world geographic representation of this deity: perhaps "Vajra Warrior" (From "金剛力士" which reads as "Jingang Lishi" in Chinese and "Kongo Rikishi" in Japanese) or "Benevolent Kings" (From "仁王" which gives us "Renwang" in Chinese and "Nio" in Japanese).

Both of these terms are neutral English translations of the deity's names which are used throughout East Asia and I think they're more appropriate in representing the diversity of cultures that venerate this deity.

Nyarlathotep1001 (talk) 16:53, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 11 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Nio → Niō – (and redirect Nio to NIO) There is interest above in renaming this article for several reasons. Chief to them may I add primary topic concerns: this does not clear Nio Inc. in a year of pageviews, and Google Scholar and Books searches for nio -author:nio largely give results for Nickel(II) oxide (NiO) (while searching macroned niō gets Buddhist topics). Hameltion (talk | contribs) 16:35, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. No sources cited for the proposed spelling. Known as "Niô" here, "Ni-ō" here, but in most sources simply as "Nio". No objection to Nio (Buddhism) per WP:NOPRIMARY. 162 etc. (talk) 18:19, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

  @162 etc.: Examples of sources using "Niō" are Education About Asia, Islam and Civilisational Renewal, etc. from Google Scholar. But yes, macronless "Nio" gets more Scholar hits (and other diacritics fewer)—so no objection to Nio (Buddhism), should've mentioned that as an option. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 18:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

• Move to Nio (Buddhism), and move NIO to Nio, as there is already a mix of capitalizations on the disambiguation page. BD2412 T 20:51, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.