Talk:Spanish dollar

Untitled

"which is equivalent to 3550.16 troy grains or, 230.0465 metric grams"

Seven figures of precision? I really doubt that. It's misleading to use more figures in the conversion than were used in measuring the coin at the time of its currency. Just how accurate was the weight of a Spanish dollar at minting? After a bit of circulation? - David Gerard 20:20, May 1, 2004 (UTC)

Mistranslation?

The Spanish dollar (also known as the "piece of eight", the "real de a ocho", or the "eight real coin")

I think that's wrong right there. Real de a ocho should be something like "A Royal of Eight." Most people who don't know Spanish think real means REAL in english. Not always, real means Royal, as in El Camino Real means The Royal Road (Similarly to saying The King's Road) and not the REAL Road or anything to that effect. Anyways, I'm no expert on Spanish currency so it might be like that. Just putting it out there. 69.106.201.40 (talk) 04:53, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not "real" as in "reality", but "real" as in Spanish real. —174.24.160.175 (talk) 16:18, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Bad Image

The image has been corrected. Coinman62 (talk) 20:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge with Pieces of eight

Merge with Pieces of eight

-Removed immature vulgarity.

picture of a peso

Spain never minted a coin called peso. Visit URL [[1]] to understand the history behind the piece of eight or Ocho Reales. The article written by MIGUEL L. MUÑOZ, NLG cleary states the peso was an aka of the ocho reales, not a real coin.

That is exactly like saying that the United States has never minted a coin called a nickel because the word "nickel" does not appear on the U.S. "five cents coin." (I can just see myself going to a bank and asking for a "roll of five-cents coins." What kind of look will the teller give me?)

The peso has always been called a peso, back at least as far as the 1500s. That is the term used in accounts, official documents, legal documents, laws, etc. (I am a part-time historian and have read thousands of pages of Spanish and Mexican documents going back to the early 1500s.) How much more "real" does the term need to be?

I am also a bit put off by the insistence in this article on the term "Spanish dollar." The coins in question are specifically the Mexican peso, i.e. the peso (or "Ocho Reales coin" for those who insist on an anachronistic term that no one in reality ever used) that was minted in Mexico. The reason is that different mints in the Spanish Empire had different standards for weights and silver content. The coin that was adopted as a standard currency in the U.S., the Philippines, China, etc., was the Mexican Peso. This became particularly clear after Mexican independence, when the Mexican Peso remained a standard currency in the United States, at par with the U.S. dollar, until the 1850s, while Spanish currency declined in value. --Potosino 15:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

As they are specifically dollar Spanish ?, First of all that there is a clear thing, at that time Mexico did not exist, it was New Spain and was part of Spain. The second, as it was a Mexican peso if there were even Spanish bills in the USA ?.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.165.50.217 (talk) 03:19, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Pieces of seven

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Q: What do you call pieces of seven?

A: Parroty error! --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.90.142.120 (talk) 14:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

Please note that the talk page is for important things, about the article not just random jokes.

Shadowblade08 (talk) 14:54, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

You sure told him -- 13 and half years late! AnonMoos (talk) 18:23, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rewrite

the following paragraph:

The Coinage Act of 1792 created the United States Mint, but the first U.S. dollars were not as popular as the Spanish dollars, which were heavier and were made of finer silver. An eight real coin nominally weighed 550.209 Spanish grains, which is 423.900 troy/avoirdupois grains (0.883125 troy ounce or 27.468 grams), .93055 fine: so contained 0.821791 troy ounce (25.560 grams) fine silver. Its weight and purity varied significantly between mints and over the centuries. In contrast, the Coinage Act of 1792 specified that the U.S. dollar would contain 371 4/16 grain (24.1 g) pure or 416 grain (27.0 g) standard silver.

... has too much irrelevant information. maybe it should be written like this:

An eight real coin nominally weighed 550.209 Spanish grains, which is 423.900 troy/avoirdupois grains (0.883125 troy ounce or 27.468 grams), .93055 fine: so contained 0.821791 troy ounce (25.560 grams) fine silver. Its weight and purity varied significantly between mints and over the centuries. (24.242.221.231 20:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC))

Cutting into Eight

I see "tick marks" all around the edges. Were these marks used as guides in cutting the coins into quarters or eighths? Too Old 18:01, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any mention of these coins being partitioned, at all. I recall learning in school that pieces of eight could be physically broken into octants -- I think the article should either confirm or explicitly refute this idea. Joule36e5 (talk) 02:28, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I imagine that tick marks served as a deterent to clipping valuable metal off the edges, and the story of breaking a pieces of eight into pieces is apparently a myth, going by: http://hunleyfinder.wordpress.com/article/pieces-of-eight-by-dr-e-lee-spence-9a3pk7ykcgda-8/ 207.189.227.42 (talk) 07:04, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Cutting the Silver Dollar into 4 or 8 "bits" most certainly did happen (Google for "cut Spanish Dollar" and you will find 16thC examples in coin auctions) but I can't find a good citation. It's the origin of the "two bits" or Quarter. Jmackaerospace (talk) 22:39, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Inaccurate information

I have removed the entirely inaccurate paragraph which refers to a supposed "Spanish peso" being introduced in 1864. No such coin existed, the Spanish escudo was introduced in 1864.
Dove1950 (talk) 15:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Your edits are thinly veiled to push your POV that the Spanish Dollar was referred to as a peso prior to 1864. The original article does not claim the existence of a Spanish Peso at all. Your original research has, again, been reverted. 74.132.178.84 (talk) 18:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

There is ample evidence for the use of the Spanish word peso for the 8 reales coin. The fact is that this name was used across Latin America, as evidenced in the articles linked to in my edit. What do you think happened in 1864? I can assure you (and you can verify this for yourself at Spanish escudo) that what happened was that the escudo was introduced. Spain has never issued coins denominated in pesos. Please stop implying that it has by restoring this mistaken statement.
Dove1950 (talk) 18:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems that the point has still to be driven home. None of the ideas that are being introduced by User:Jolliette and his/her alternate identities are valid. The peso was the name used for 8 reales coins. Claiming otherwise is simply false, as is claiming that the peseta was the basis for currencies in South America which were actually based on the peso. As can be seen in Talk:Mexican peso, Jolliette's maths leaves a lot to be desired, as does his/her history.
Dove1950 (talk) 22:37, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Ad hominem do not prove your points. I have listed my sources here, refute the sources and provide discussion, do not simply revert because you dislike me. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 00:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

You have not listed a single source to back up your claims. The only source you have added is to prove that Spain adopted the peseta in 1869, something that is completely irrelevant in this discussion. Where are your sources for the statements "While the term peso is sometimes used today to include the historic Spanish Dollar, this is incorrect.", "Prior to 1869, the Spanish currency was more accurately called the Reales, as this coin was the basis for the currency." and "The Spanish Peseta later became the basis for many of the currencies in the former Spanish colonies"? And, just for the record, I do not like your edits and your tactics. For all I know, you might be a nice person away from Wikipedia.
Dove1950 (talk) 21:39, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The burden of proof lies on you to prove that the Peso was used. I have proved it did not become the Peseta till later, and Peseta is the basis for the term "Peso". -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 19:18, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

You are trying to add inaccurate information. If you want additional references for what is already in this article, please identify those areas so that they can be added.
Dove1950 (talk) 20:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Where do you get the idea from that peso comes from peseta? Read Spanish peseta#Etymology for the actually etymology.
Dove1950 (talk) 23:49, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

And it confirms the link between Peseta and Peso. I am working to provide sources for the rest here. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 23:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

It confirms that peso came before peseta, not, as you've been claiming, that peso came from peseta. It also identfies a distinct etymology for peseta from Catalan, only suggesting a link to peso. Please don't misrepresent what's written.
Dove1950 (talk) 21:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Dollar

Did Spain originate the term Dollar? What does it actually mean? 70.57.170.222 (talk) 09:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

• Dollar comes from the word thaler.
  Dove1950 (talk) 16:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The Dutch Leeuwendaalder (in circulation since 1575, in Holland and the colonies) gave its name to the Spanish dollar. The article suggests that the Maria Theresa Thaler gave its name to the dollar. But that coin was minted in 1751, and according to the reference Americans use the name dollar already in from 1581.--Watisfictie (talk) 03:05, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

"finesse"

Is the word "fineness" actually meant? AnonMoos (talk) 16:42, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Currency Reform of 1497?

The page states the Spanish dollar "was minted after a Spanish currency reform in 1497. Its purpose was to correspond to the German thaler." However, according to the Thaler page, the first Thalers were minted in 1518. It therefore seems the statement about the dollar being meant to correspond to the thaler either needs clarification, or is factually inaccurate. Ericgelsinger (talk) 18:37, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

This inconsistency is actually exactly what brought me to the talk page hoping to find some discussion about a clarification. I'm not sufficiently well versed in the subject to confidently rewrite either page, but it could certainly use some attention since the current form doesn't make any sense. 76.168.136.68 (talk) 01:19, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Single M in the obverse is not for Mexico

The single letter M in the Obverse of the "real de a ocho" coin is not for M[EXICANUS]. If you can see the little circle over that letter M, that's not a circle, it's a Royal Crown. It means the "Real Casa de la Moneda" (Mint of Spain) as you can see in all the obverses of all Spanish Peseta pictures and also in the logo of the current Real Casa de la Moneda of Spain website (upper left). It has always meant the same, so translating it as M[EXICANUS] is not right. --Jago (talk) 03:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect. The single letter M in the Obverse of the "real de a ocho" coin means MEXICO (Mint of México city). Is really a little circle and form the sign Mº (Mexico monogram), is not a crown. See Real de a ocho: Los Borbones.

--Zumalabe (talk) 07:33, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect. The single letter M in the Obverse does not mean Mexico. It is a symbol that has always been in Spanish minted coins and is the symbol for the Real Casa de la Moneda y Timbre.

The reference you use is just an interpretation done in a personal home page, biased, and thus not reliable.

--Jago MF (talk) 14:28, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

This page is not "a personal home page, biased, and thus not reliable", is a numismatic page from an specialist in the question, clearly something you're not.

Como sé que me vas a entender te lo diré en román paladino para que quede mas claro: La letra "M" y una corona sobre ella si son de la ceca de la Real Casa de la Moneda, pero no viene eso en las monedas en cuestión que están en esta página, sino la abreviatura de la ceca donde se troquelaban la mayoría de los reales de a ocho que circulaban por el imperio español de aquella época, la ceca de la ciudad de Méjico. Ese acrónimo es una "M" y una pequeña "o" sobre ella (mas o menos, Mº) y es así desde la época colonial (y también lo es en la actualidad). Los siguientes enlaces no son, precisamente, páginas personales no fiables, espero que te lo dejen mas claro y que sepas reconocer los muy diferentes signos que en ellas vienen: Casa de la Moneda de México en Wikipedia, Página oficial de la Casa de Moneda de México y la Página oficial de la Real Casa de la Moneda, en Madrid. No son, Obviamente, los mismos símbolos.--Zumalabe (talk) 18:32, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Conversion

This page should include a table listing conversions where it weights the (presumably shifting) value of 1 peso throughout the centuries when compared against the current value €1, £1 and $1, in order to reflect the actual adquisitive power of the coin, since basing it on the current prices of silver as is done in the Spanish treasure fleet page is deceptive. The peso was a global coin and in terms of adquisitive power, it was worth more than its current weight in silver. 107.77.216.181 (talk) 16:14, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Those figures may not, themselves, be available in any source. What I would like to see is an indication of hoe the coin's weight and purity changed over the years Then again, I have no idea why this acticle's largest section (history) has a "main" link to an article with a scope which is nominally more restricted.

That said, if you have the figures, feel free to use them. Aoeuidhtns (talk) 10:29, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Elisabeth/Isabella

In the first box illustrating the coins the names of the "Catholic Monarchs" are given in the left-hand column as "Ferdinand and Elisabeth". Although "Elisabeth/Elizabeth" is generally translated into Spanish as "Isabel" (Britain's current queen is known in the Spanish media as "Isabel II"), the female Catholic Monarch of Spain is always called "Isabella" in English (and "Isabel" in Spanish) - this is the only time I've ever seen her referred to as "Elisabeth". In the right-hand column of the same box she in fact appears as "Isabella", and the article the link goes to also has "Isabella" in the title. I'd change this myself, but as usual I'm afraid to damage the link - and clicking on it to make a correction simply activates it!213.127.210.95 (talk) 13:27, 27 June 2018 (UTC)