Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2011 September 25

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September 25

H. B. Martin

Does anybody know anything about the identity of H. B. Martin who drew this image? Where was he from and when did he lived and did he ever visit Polynesia?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:50, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I can find two artists named H. B. Martin, and I don't know if either is this guy. One was a staff artist with the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, see [1]. The other wrote and illustrated books on golf history, see [2] and [3]. There is also an RAF officer: [4]. I did find This picture, which may have been the Post-Dispatch artist. There's yet another Harry B. Martin mentioned here: [5]. This book has an illustrator named H.B. Martin. Not sure which one, if any of the already noted, it is. Maybe some of those will give you some leads. --Jayron32 03:36, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I've tracked it down to a man name Henry Byam Martin, but I'm not sure which one. There seems to be more than one a British captain and another an American painter [6]. Which one is the right one? Please tell me there date of birth and death also. Thanks.

They are the same person. Henry Byam Martin (1803-1865) was a British captain and artist who visited America in the 1830s and Polynesia in the 1840s. Biography here.--Cam (talk) 14:36, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

By the way the images's caption at this page says "Teriitaria, eldest daughter of king Tamatoa III de Raiatea was the concubine of Pomare II who married her sister Teremoemoe. In 1819 the king of Huahine, Mahine, gave her her title. She was passionately hostile to the protectorate and led the revolt of 1844-1846."--Cam (talk) 14:53, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I have started Henry Byam Martin any help appreciated. MilborneOne (talk) 15:39, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Does anybody know if the little boy in the image is Pomare III? The site doesn't say other than it's Queen Teriitaria Ariipaea who was the one of the boy-king's regent and aunt. If it is then it can't be a life depiction since he died in 1827, thirteen years before Martin came to Tahiti.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:59, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

With the information on the French website, and knowing when Martin visited Tahiti, there is no reason at this point to believe that the child is Pomare III. The best reference would be the book The Polynesian Journal of Henry Byam Martin which probably includes this illustration.--Cam (talk) 13:02, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Publishing Editorial content on my blog.

Hi, I want to publish newspapaer editorial contents on my blog page on daily basis. And I will mention the full name of Newspaper and writer. I want to know if I will have to take premission from the newspaper authority or I can post it directly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.225.96.217 (talk) 04:55, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

This is a question for legal advice, which we are not allowed to answer. But as a first approximation, anything that doesn't say it is in the public domain is Copyright and you may not reproduce it in any form without permission. This includes most material on the web. --ColinFine (talk) 10:39, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Destroying the USA's Economy

Would the USA's economy crumble to pieces if China and Japan simply asked for their debts to be paid, or would other mesasures be necessary to ensure the fall of capitalism? →Στc. 06:38, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think if we could cause a nuclear war, that would probably do the trick. :p I'm curious about this though (I don't think China would want to destabalise the US economy like that because it would cause a lot of panic and be bad for business) and will watch it as I don't have anything of actual value to add this atm. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 26 Elul 5771 06:52, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

We don't owe China that much money. The biggest entity bankrolling US debt is bond holders in the US itself. Likely a "demand" like that would be met by just devaluing the currency or some other similar trick, which might be bad for the US, but it wouldn't necessarily be a catastrophe. It certainly wouldn't cause the fall of capitalism, which would be alive and well in many other parts of the world even if the US went up in a puff of hypothetical capita-smoke. SDY (talk) 06:50, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

It would be alive and well in China and Japan, anyway. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:53, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I think a better question would be: if the US economy collapsed what would the effect be on the world economy? (Note: this is not a request for violations of WP:CRYSTAL by Wikipedians, but rather the fetching of the opinions of overconfident economists) Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 26 Elul 5771 06:55, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Most of the damage of the US economy collapsing would be felt in the western world. Nations like Cuba and North Korea would go unaffected as they are disconnected. I think African and Asian economies would continue to grow, just at a slower rate. It could actually be a blessing to some nations in that they could begin to create their own industry as they would have less competition from US industries that have the benefit of being long established and are protected by tariffs on manufactured goods.

It is important to note that while the US is the largest economy, a lot of it is self-consumed, which is why its 3rd in exports. The amount of exporting/importing a nation does shows how important it is to other nations. List of countries by importsList of countries by exports.

I also think those in control of the US wouldn't care a whole lot if the US did collapse as many of them already have millions in assets in foreign nations or are rich enough to move anywhere they want. The only Americans who would suffer greatly are the bottom 290 million.

To the original poster, the US spends almost as much money on its military than the rest of the world combined for a reason. Foreigners will get there money back if and when the US says they can have it back; at least in a crisis situation they could say that. But really, they would probably just cut social services like hospitals, schools, and roads or devalue their currency. Rich people can just switch over their fortunes into gold or such before hand, so devaluing the currency is an option for those in power/rich. Public awareness (talk) 08:13, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Let us not forget that 25% of the USA's national debt goes to China, and a fair portion (I can't remember the numbers for this) to Japan. What I am trying to find out is what it would take to topple the USA's economy. →Στc. 07:38, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

China and Japan cannot demand that the U.S. redeem a bond before its maturity date. If they do, the U.S. can simply refuse, as it's under no obligation to pay back debt before the agreed-upon maturity date. In a case where China or Japan become hostile to the U.S., the U.S. would simply refuse to honor any debt it owes to those countries without risk of a credit downgrade. No country, after all, can be expected to fund its enemies. In such a case, China and Japan would be screwed, not the US. --140.180.16.144 (talk) 08:43, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The question really boils down to, "what happened if the US defaulted on its sovereign debt?" The answer is complicated. Google "US debt default" comes up with about a million different opinions — some more ideologically informed than economic, to be sure — on the way it might play out. It wouldn't necessarily "topple the US economy". Sovereign default has happened before in many other countries. In the short run it ruins the investors who are owed money, and then results in higher interest rates in the long run. That's not good, and is worth avoiding (especially if you are a citizen of the defaulting country), but it's not the economic WMD you seem to be imagining. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:56, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

As noted previously, China and Japan can't demand payment before the debts are due. However, they could refuse to loan more money once the current debts are payed off. The US would thus have time to find other sources of money or restrict spending or raise taxes. I suspect that China would no longer be given Most Favored Nation status for trade, though, and might lose a good chunk of it's export market as a result. Japan, unlike China, is a peaceful democracy which no longer occupies it's neighbors (like Tibet) or threatens to invade others (like Taiwan), so wouldn't have MFN pulled. It might be forced to fully pay for it's own defense, though. StuRat (talk) 14:20, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

There's no way at this point that the US would engage in a trade war with China, which is what modification of the MFN status would mean. As Thomas Friedman has written a bunch of times, this would be suicide politically. Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:41, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Why ? China appears to have a lot more to lose. The US could find cheap goods from a dozen other nations with low wages, no environmental protections, no unions, etc. StuRat (talk) 01:05, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

If China, Japan or anyone else demanded repayment of US Treasury or other national bills (i.e., debt), the quick and quite accurate answer would be, “You are free to sell them on the open market.” Doing so in significant quantity, of course, would result in a dramatic drop in value, which would (1) really mess up the balance sheets of the central banks (all of them) holding such debt; (2) raise the future interest rates required for the US to sell debt, thereby sharply increasing future budget deficits; and (3) have a knock-on effect to the US and world economy. The drop in global demand would hit hardest the exporting economies, such as China. In other words, this would be a really, really stupid thing for China to do, and so they won’t.

StuRat, If the US were willing to play unfairly with China, why would other economies trust us? [ADD: The majority of China's exports are by foreign-invested enterprises, which means a trade war first hits the wrong _targets.] DOR (HK) (talk) 06:39, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't see what's "unfair" about the USA pulling MFN status from China. They continually hold down the value of the yuan, and that alone would be justification. Add to that them having inadequate safety checks to prevent them from shipping deadly products, lack of environmental regulations, human rights abuses, lack of democracy, their occupation of Tibet, threats against Taiwan, support for the genocidal government of Sudan, suppression of their Muslim minority and other minorities, etc., and you have plenty of justification. I imagine other nations with those characteristics might be worried, but that's a good thing, if it gets them to reform. StuRat (talk) 17:27, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Dictionnaire illustré de la Polynésie, sous la direction de F. Mercerau

Does anybody know when Dictionnaire illustré de la Polynésie, sous la direction de F. Mercerau is dated from? Is Mercerau still alive or dead? Can someone also help me ask the French wiki also since I think they would know too.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:49, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Seems to be 1988. And the man in charge was François Merceron, not Mercerau. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:04, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Okay, thank you.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 08:09, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

2 questions about sign language

1. do aspies use sign language?

2. what sign language is used in singapore? asl? bsl? csl? or? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.17.244 (talk) 10:08, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

For your second question, see "Sign language in Singapore". Gabbe (talk) 10:23, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

For your first question, do you have some reason to believe the answer is no? Sign languages are human languages which are used and develop in exactly the same ways as spoken languages (see Nicaraguan Sign Language for example) and so there is no prime facie reason to suppose that a person with Asperger's or any other condition would have more or less facility with manual than with spoken language (unless the condition affected their motor control, of course). --ColinFine (talk) 10:48, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

For your first question II: you should have reason to believe the answer is yes, and even that they could be better off using it, as an aid to supplement to a disturbed communication ability. The whole idea is not completely new. See Picture Exchange Communication System for a form of augmentative and alternative communication. 88.8.79.204 (talk) 11:02, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

On question 1, I read a blog entry once from somenone that did, apparently in particularly stressful situations they became unable to talk at all and reverted to sign language, and had to have a close friend around that could understand it. Myself, I would find it even more awkward to communicate like that than talking, in part it would just feel wrong given that I am physically capable of speaking, and also odd, because only a very few people would understand what I was saying, and the others would be watching and a little confused. 148.197.80.214 (talk) 19:36, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

See Selective mutism for some discussion of that condition. I haven't read the article, so I'm not sure if it discusses Aspergers or Autism in general, but the general features are probably the same as for people not on the Autism spectrum. --Tango (talk) 12:03, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Pornography in different cultures

La grande Epidemie

This is inspired by StuRat's question about erotic art in constellations. Western society looks down on pornography, even though it's no secret that a large percentage of the population watches it. Why is it a taboo, despite being popular? Also, how widespread is this stigma against watching pornography? Is it common to all cultures of all time, or is it quite specific to modern Western societies? --140.180.16.144 (talk) 10:14, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

One place to start might be Anti-pornography movement, and the references there. Also, note your verb: watching porn only became widespread with video recorders. Looking at porn became mass-market with the launch of Playboy. Reading porn dates back to well before Fanny Hill. Do live performances count as porn, in the pre-VHS days? Not sure, but it will affect your answer. BrainyBabe (talk) 15:50, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Geoffrey Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales, and specifically The Miller's Tale, were rather pornographic reading, IMHO. StuRat (talk) 01:02, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

The anti-pornography movement article seems to be from a very modern standpoint and lacks any history (even though it discusses various ancient religious texts). In American, the stance against open discussion of sexuality is often called Puritanism, even though, as that article says, the use of "puritan" as an antonym of "hedonist" isn't historically accurate. Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:39, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

One reason is that men and women have very different sexual motivations and expectations of what is reasonable, which on balance makes women typically far more opposed to pornography than men. This leads to a taboo based on the fact that most men would prefer that the women they know do not have accurate information about the extent to which they consume pornography. 69.171.160.138 (talk) 17:42, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Is this in itself a cultural phenomenon, or does it have some biological basis? I know this is hard to judge, but if it's case in almost all cultures throughout human history, I'd consider it to have a biological basis.

@BrainyBabe: I meant consuming pornography in any way: watching, reading, listening, looking at, etc. I was under the impression that porn is as old as literate human society itself. --140.180.16.144 (talk) 20:37, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Nothing is pornographic except that a culture makes it so. Some things deemed pornographic may be unsafe or unhealthy, but they are not classified on those accounts. I doubt one has to be a literate culture to have a sense of pornography, though I don't know of pre-literate ones that did, as we are, by definition, missing written records. Pictures themselves tell us nothing about how the culture viewed such activities. Bielle (talk) 21:53, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Venus of Willendorf-24,000 year old porn?? Public awareness (talk) 00:09, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

It's strictly biological. There are genes on the Y chromosomes of all vertebrates other than fish, most amphibians and some birds (which have ZW/ZZ chromosomes for sex gametes), effecting the development of hormones (androgens) and the limbic system that are thought to be responsible for males' more promiscuous mating strategies which are the most favorable for propagation of their genes, in contrast to females' more advantageous strategy of less promiscuity and more nesting and nuclear family based child rearing behaviors. Our article on Sexual dimorphism glosses over sexual behavior differences for some reason, and Animal sexual behaviour tries to cover too much to be useful for describing generalities, so see [7], [8], [9] (a review of The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature), [10], etc. 69.171.160.56 (talk) 07:05, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I really don't think this taboo your speaking of is a part of "modern Western societies", just the US. Many western nations have civil rights that allow women to go topless, but the US doesn't. I'm in Canada, and I can recall numerous times at various gatherings where there is random porn on tv and no one cares, and I've gone to strip clubs (where they actually strip, not like in the US) with friends and it's no big deal. Isn't it mostly the highly religious christians/fundementalists plus some types of feminists who are against porn? Prostitution, a step beyond porn, is legal in many western nations such as Australia, Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland, and quasi-legal in Canada, though is still a crime in the US. So I'm pretty sure western society is not against porn, it's mostly the US. Public awareness (talk) 00:09, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Even so, if your grandmother or your child's school teacher were coming to visit you, would you leave your porn mags lying around on the coffee table open at the most masturbation-inducing picture? I suggest not. In that sense, it's definitely "taboo", but it's really more a question of appropriateness, not of taboo per se. Like, there's no taboo against an adult couple having sex, but there is against letting the kiddies take part. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 03:31, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

"Prostitution is a crime in the US." Not true, at least not in some part of US, Bunny Ranch is a legal, licensed brothel in Mound House, Nevada, United States. Royor (talk) 06:32, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Ah, so not that society wants to ban porn or makes people who watch it feel shame, just the idea that you should keep it to yourself around certain groups, kinda like farting or burping, acceptable around same-sex friends, less acceptable with opposite-sex not close friends, or your boss. Than I would say that it's partially taboo in most nations where porn is legal as there are age restrictions in most nations on the sale of porn. Public awareness (talk) 04:01, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what kind of gatherings you're going to, Public awareness, but watching random porn at a party is not something people normally do in Canada. And women can walk around topless in Ontario, at least, but how often do you actually see that? I've seen a couple of times, aside from Caribana or the Pride Parade in Toronto, but this also isn't something people normally do. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:36, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I didn't mean watching porn on purpose, just if the tv is on in the background and it stays on till 3am, sometimes R rated material comes on, and no one cares. Also I was going off the wikipedia definition of "A taboo is a strong social prohibition (or ban) relating to any area of human activity or social custom that is sacred and forbidden based on moral judgment and religious beliefs." While woman are rarely topless besides the beach or special events, its far from "forbidden", and of course porn is even further from forbidden in Canada. Why I thought it was closer to taboo in the US is that people actually protest against porn stores, and any female nudity is illegal in public, and that besides a small rural area of the US, prostitution is illegal, this all being different than several other western nations. Public awareness (talk) 08:02, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of the social issues and desire of certain lawmakers, I don't know whether you can really say there are more legal restrictions on pornography when properly rated and controlled in the US, then Canada and some of the other countries you mentioned (like Australia and Germany), thanks partially to the current intepretations of the first amendment in the US. See for example Simulated child pornography (also Legal status of cartoon pornography depicting minors), Zoophilia and the law, Rape pornography, Obscenity and Pornography by region. There are cases like Max Hardcore which are still weaving their way through the US court system, their outcome will give a better bearing on the situation in the US. (Also there doesn't seem to have been any real test of written material in the US, some have been successfully prosecuted but they never went very far in the court system.) But a lot of the stuff which is still uncertain in the US seems clear cut banned in other countries. (While the laws haven't always been tested that well in other countries, their legal systems and interacting laws seem to make it generally less likely the decisions and laws will be overturned.) P.S. Whatever people may think of such extreme pornography, due to the lack of legal restrictions on less extreme pornography it's the primary area of variance in such countries. Nil Einne (talk) 16:37, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Lots of unsupported troll-porn here coming from Pubic awareness who seems to know only one thing: USA=BAD, regardless facts, sources, or reason. μηδείς (talk) 21:19, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Obvious troll is obvious. U mad bro? Public awareness (talk) 21:45, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you seem to be a little too fond of aggressive polemical statements which are clearly not always backed up by facts. I know of a BDSM-related "graphic novel" project (i.e. a non-children's comic book which was not in fact out-and-out pornography) which was partially torpedoed in the late 1990s by Canadian customs regulations, so don't tell us that Canada is the exactly the same as Stockholm in the 1970s, because I don't think it is... AnonMoos (talk) 22:28, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I know, that's why I said "I would say that it's partially taboo in most nations", most, because there could be an oddball culture I'm not aware of, and Canada is included in most. In the west, porn is not forbidden, like in many other parts of the world, but most westerns act discreetly with their porn. So porn is less taboo in the west than in most of the world. We never really looked at the question "Why is it a taboo, despite being popular?", my 2 guesses of why people hide their porn habits is out of respect for others, aka, I know I don't want to see posters of fully nude men just lying around when I go over to a girl's place. And, there is also the connection to masterbation of course, and as Jim Jefferies once said, "I do this every single $*#@ day, yet I would be mortified if any one of you was to ever see me doing this, I would want to kill myself" - so many people feel some shame over masterbation, which is than connected to porn. This shame may not be inherent for humans though, Pirahã people for one have no qualms over sex, and regularly sell sex or their wives for an hour when buying goods. Public awareness (talk) 23:40, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Archaeological finds Roland de Vaux from Qumran

What is the current fate of archaeological finds and a diary by Roland de Vaux, which he did at Qumran? I read that they arrogated to themselves the kind of archaeologists Robert and Pauline Donsel Donsel-Woot. Need more accurate information. Странник27 (talk) 10:46, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

As I'm sure you know, there is a lot of controversy surrounding the work of Roland de Vaux. Start with the references on that article, and good luck. 69.171.160.138 (talk) 17:46, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

PRC's and Russia's borders

Why, despite Russia is larger than China (PRC), the latter has longer borders?--46.204.77.28 (talk) 13:21, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The map in the infobox of the article Russia should give you an idea. Russia is surrounded by a lot of sea and ocean; to the east, to the north, and to a lesser extent in the south-west. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 13:43, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Measuring the length of a border can vary massively (at least 50%) depending on how you measure it because of the coastline paradox if it includes some natural features (eg. a river). Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 13:47, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, good point. Also, separately from the coastline paradox, many of Russia's land borders are likely to have been drawn as fairly straight lines (e.g. in the plains of Eastern Europe) whereas a greater proportion of China's land borders are likely to be "spiky" due to being in mountainous areas. Even a river flows somewhat straighter than a mountain range. This is likely to contribute to making Russia's borders proportionally a little shorter even while encompassing greater area. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:45, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Short answer: for the same reason a small five-pointed star has more border length than a (slightly) larger circle. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:45, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Good answer, DOR. μηδείς (talk) 18:59, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

South American pictures

I have been trying to find pictures of generic scenes of everyday life in south america at different times through the 20th century, particularly early in the century (c1900-1912), but wherever I look there are too many other pictures coming up only distantly related to South or to America or portraits of famous people, and nothing of what I want. Does anyone know of a place around the internet where I can conduct such a search better?

148.197.81.179 (talk) 13:35, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Did you try Google Books? They also have archives of magazines. It's a great source of public domain images. Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:34, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I added "South" to the title, to make it clearer. StuRat (talk) 00:57, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

How to find the original study or studies...

In reading a paper draft, I came across this claim:

As stated in a study by Nike Foundation in 2009 “women reinvest 90% of their income back into the household, whereas men reinvest only 30% to 40%”.

The link to the Nike paper didn't open. The quoted phrase can be found in dozen's of online sources. I don't think that Nike actually did the study, I think that they wrote something like, 'studies show that...'. I would like to be pointed towards the original source or sources for this specific claim. I spent quite some time googling around that phrase, but couldn't really find a genuine original source/citation. It seems more like a meme that came from somewhere and has now reproduced prolifically. Thanks if you can help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.98.238.113 (talk) 13:49, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The Nike Foundation's website for this campaign is www.girleffect.org. Browsing it eventually leads to this fact sheet, which attributes the statement to this source from 2003. That source only offers the attribution "Coleman referred to a study [...]". I have been unable to locate any other source pre-dating this 2003 one referring to this "reinvestment" data. As have, apparently, others; see comments for [11] and [12], for example. Perhaps you could email Coleman and ask her? Gabbe (talk) 14:45, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

End of the recent US wars in Iraq

My google-fu is failing me, partially because the word "surrender" gets used in political discourse in the US so frequently, but did Saddam Hussein's government ever actually surrender during Desert Storm or the more recent US invasion? Does anyone have a link to the text of that document, if they did? SDY (talk) 16:10, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

No. The first Gulf War of course ended when the US and the rest of the coalition stopped attacking; and Gulf War II ended, as that article states, in "debellatio", a word I had never before encountered; meaning there was nothing left of the Iraqi state. Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:32, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

That would be the opposite of what LBJ did to the Vietnamese, which Tom Lehrer referred to as "escallatio". ←baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:22, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, I have vague recollections of some Iraqi representative agreeing to something-or-other at the end of the first war - at the U.S. headquarters? - but I could be mixing it up with something else. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:49, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I have the same recollection, of the Coalition leaders (Powell and Schwarzkopf, I think) meeting with Iraqi generals (not Saddam himself) and arriving at a "deal" that ended the war. This appears to be alluded to in the Gulf War article:[13] ←baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:06, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

A New York Times report here. The report says "Within two hours, the obviously humbled Iraqi delegation had accepted all the demands that were presented for a permanent cease-fire in the Persian Gulf war. In effect, the Iraqis had surrendered and the coalition's victory over the Government of President Saddam Hussein appeared complete." A more detailed account of the meeting of 03 March 1991 is here; The Gulf War Chronicles: A Military History of the First War with Iraq By Richard S. Lowry (pp.211-213). Alansplodge (talk) 17:03, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

However, Comet Tuttle's comments above about the 2003 Iraq Invasion appear to be correct; the final flourish of the overtly military phase was Bush's 2003 Mission Accomplished speech on 01 May. This has now become a byword for wishful thinking or hubris. Alansplodge (talk) 17:33, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Nazi insurgency

Do we have an article discussing Nazi insurgencies during the occupation of Germany after World War 2? The latter article doesn't discuss it. Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:59, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Does Werwolf help? The Mark of the Beast (talk) 17:26, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Very much, thank you. I've added an "Insurgency" section to the Allied-occupied Germany article accordingly. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:34, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Drinking on Thursdays

An odd trend I've noticed so far at college is that the "partying" weekend seems to be Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights. In my Friday classes there are a couple people who fail to show up that day because of having been out partying and drinking the night before, and the campus funded taxi program transports students on Thursday night through Saturday night. Also, With Friday being a day that, barring a long weekend, tends to have either work or school, why is it that Thursday night is also considered a party night? Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 18:29, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I know it's considered party night in Israel because the weekend is Friday and Staurday. I can't imagine why in the US though. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 26 Elul 5771 18:37, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Which brings the point that the question is likely highly regional or cultural in nature, so it might help to know where the questioner is referring to. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 18:40, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Mainly it's because there are always some students who have gone home for the weekend and they usually leave Friday afternoon, so the best time to party with everyone is Thursday. Than the real Friday comes, are students are still up for partying, so they go to it, Saturday comes, why not... Really though when I was at at school, Sunday was the only night of the week we usually didn't go out, and yes I graduated on time. Public awareness (talk) 19:04, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

When I went to school (in the USA), it was not uncommon for students to try and schedule as few classes on Friday as possible, so as to make their weekend as long as possible. There was, if I remember, even a semester when I myself had zero courses on Friday (though I was not much of a Thursday night partier). --Mr.98 (talk) 20:15, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree with what Mr.98 has said. I too went to school in the US and it was also what was known as a party school. (Playboy magazine had listed it as one of the top ten party schools in the country) Though it was also a leading school in my field of study. I specifically remember one semester when I had an 8am class on Fridays and would usually get some comment from other students about how early that was to be up especially on a Friday. So called "good" schedules had either no classes on a Friday or only one that started later in the morning. Also, not too late in the afternoon which would disturb plans to either start partying or going home on the weekend. Dismas|^(talk) 20:34, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I managed never to schedule a friday (or saturday) class as an undergrad in a major east coast school except for two classes which I did not attend except on exam dates. A 45 minute backup on out-of-town traffic from 4-8pm on thursdays was the norm.μηδείς (talk) 20:49, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Its mainly because pubs and nightclubs can't have student nights on Fridays or the weekend (locals who work during the week will want to enter at this time, and in addition will be willing to pay more per drink then students can) but they do want to have student nights (you know, because we tend to drink a lot). What day is among the least popular party night for locals (who'd rather wait til Friday), so minimises the loss of their custom, while still being most attractive to students (end of the week, only potentially missing one day of lectures/assignment deadlines etc)? Thursday!--145.100.194.198 (talk) 11:05, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

None of the above. Having grown up in industrial areas of the UK, I can shed light on this: weekly-paid factory workers would get paid on Thursdays for the work done the week before (the one that ended the previous Friday), and so before they got the chance to go to the bank or shopping, they got the chance to hit the bars. Of course, these days the Thursday pay day doesn't happen to the same extent, but old habits die hard. --TammyMoet (talk) 12:06, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

In addition to this, Thursday was also the normal weekly payday for the British armed forces. A traditional saying was "The Eagle sh*ts on Thursday", in reference to the eagle that once formed part of the insignia of the Royal Army Pay Corps (in which my father served). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.194 (talk) 15:13, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

The effect of history can only be minimal. The reason where I am (that is, if you believe what people think is their logic) is that Thursday nights are student nights. Friday and Saturday are dominated by older students, and where I am, squaddies. I assume the clubs and bars run it forward a day for their own convenience. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 12:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Per his userpage, Ks0stm is at the University of Oklahoma and is from Salina, Kansas, a city with two small undergraduate colleges. Nyttend (talk) 12:59, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Maybe the connection is shared historically for the reasons noted above inbetween the various places? --145.100.194.198 (talk) 15:44, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Not just a US phenomenon; youngters in southern England tell me that "Thursday is the new Friday"; a phrase that has even found its way into the respectable columns of Wikipedea (see Workweek and weekend#Weekends for students) and has spawned a multitude of Google results. Of course, I'm far too old for that sort of thing, prefering a quiet pint in an out-of-the-way "old-bloke's pub", where anytime that's busy is best avoided :-) Alansplodge (talk) 17:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I would have to put Publicawareness's analysis as the most valid. The college student is able to construct a schedule without Fridays, and is doing so more and more. There are some schools that are actively resisting this trend, because they are worried about image, etcetera. At CSUC where I went, Thurday is considered to be an "honorary weekend night."

However, there is another reason that is not so obvious! I think it is human nature to understand that the five day work week should eventually be shortened to a four day work week. This is a labor issue, however the origin for these type of values is the university. The university is always ahead of prevailing social values. Greg Bard (talk) 19:30, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Form my understanding of human nature, most people would prefer a 1 day workweek. At least, most people I know seem to complain about work a lot. Googlemeister (talk) 14:00, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

ancient war mechanism meaning of "engines"

Roman war engines

In Appian's History of Rome: The Spanish Wars (§§21-25) it says, The 10,000 Carthaginians who were at the gates made sallies with drawn swords and fell upon those who were working the engines. Do we (or anybody) have a further description of "engines" (as used in ~200 BC) and perhaps a picture? Same for "sallies".--Doug Coldwell ^talk 19:55, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

You mean Siege engines and Sally (military)? Heiro 20:01, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Now I get the swing of it.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 21:56, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

By Joe, I do believe you got it. You are my hero.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 20:30, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

You mean "By Jove!". μηδείς (talk) 20:43, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

No proselytizing Jovianism in the Reference Desk please. -- Obsidi♠n Soul 20:48, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I could not worship a god with such a small mouth and upper lip as depicted in that article. Caracalla's more my idea of a possible pagan deity. Or Ricky Martinez (image), as Dis Pater. μηδείς (talk) 20:53, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

All glory to whichever deity inspired the Trebuchet! Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 26 Elul 5771 21:03, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Ricky Martinez inspired the trebuchet? :o -- Obsidi♠n Soul 21:07, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

More like the battering ram.μηδείς (talk) 01:06, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

The use of "engine" to mean a device providing power (car engine etc) is relatively recent. Formerly the word often used to mean what we would now call a "machine" - it's often used that way in Gulliver's Travels, for example, with The Engine being a notable case (there's also Babbage's Difference and Analytical engines. 'Fire engine' is perhaps a fossilised use of the older meaning. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Andrew is correct, Appian used the word, μηχανή or mechane.[14] Liddell's states that the Latin equivalent is machina, although that is somewhat obvious.[15] Welcome my son, welcome to the mechane. Gx872op (talk) 13:45, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. All good useful information.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 14:13, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Taiwan Language Census

Did the Taiwanese government conduct a language census for the different chinese dialects (Southern Min, Hakka, Cantonese & Mandarin) and minority languages spoken in Taiwan? Can you provide me with a web link that shows a lastest language census? 174.114.236.41 (talk) 22:10, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The Taiwanese government does not seem to collect statistics in any regular way on the membership of Han Chinese people in linguistic subgroups. There seem to be only informal estimates, such as those in our article Taiwanese people. The Taiwanese government does collect data on populations of recognized indigenous groups, however. These population data appear in our article Demographics of Taiwan. Marco polo (talk) 20:39, 26 September 2011 (UTC)