In T312309#8130131, @nayoub wrote:

In this proposal, the lead section content is now above the topics with an "i" info icon and reads "Learn more about editing this page" (UX copy TBC).

The issue with this text—and almost any other text—is that the lead section may contain various types of content, of which the text you proposed applies to only one or a few:

• WikiProject boxes
• Talk page headers reminding users to remain civil and stay on topic
• Links to archives
• Templates or non-templated content describing the purpose of the talk page (mainly in project and project talk namespaces)
• To-do lists
• Notices about ArbCom decisions (article talk namespace)
• Non-talk page contact methods (user talk namespace)
• Property documentation and constraint templates (Wikidata’s Property talk namespace)
• Discussions that were not properly formatted (e.g. missing heading and signature) and thus aren’t recognized as being discussions; this should become pretty rare as the New Topic Tool becomes default everywhere, but broken comments that are already there won’t disappear by themselves
• etc.

The "Add topic" button is also moved to the bottom part of the UI, as a sticky footer

I don’t think we should add any sticky content on mobile—mobile screens are already quite small without us “stealing” even more space with sticky things.

Thanks for your comments @Tacsipacsi

1. Regarding the copy

The issue with this text—and almost any other text—is that the lead section may contain various types of content

We're converging towards "Learn more about this page" which is more user-friendly than the current "About this page" but still provides flexibility for multiple use cases as you outlined.

2. Sticky footer
We were thinking of replacing the sticky footer with a reveal-on-scroll which frees up the "real estate" of the mobile UI when needed but still provides the option for users to have the "Add topic" interaction handy when needed. This will be tackled in another ticket.

cc @ppelberg

noting that within "Advanced mode" on mobile we use "ⓘ Page information" to refer to the action=info page, e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Donna_Weiss&action=info

Building on what @alexhollender_WMF shared in T312309#8206776 , the next step is for @nayoub and I is to:

• Decide whether we'll move forward with the approach we talked about offline to provide people access to talk page lead section content by way of an ℹ button within the page tools toolbar. See "Approach A" in the mockup @nayoub put together below.

Change 836256 had a related patch set uploaded (by Esanders; author: Esanders):

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@master] Add button to reveal lede section on mobile

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/836256

Change 841493 had a related patch set uploaded (by Esanders; author: Esanders):

[mediawiki/skins/MinervaNeue@master] Disable "page issues" feature when DiscussionTools is handling talk page

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/841493

Test wiki created on Patch demo by ESanders (WMF) using patch(es) linked to this task:
https://patchdemo.wmflabs.org/wikis/91b554c5d1/wiki/Talk:DiscussionTools?mobileaction=toggle_view_mobile

META
During today's team meeting we decided:

1. Not to make any changes to how the notices that people will see if/when they tap the new ℹ Learn more about this page affordance.
   • In deciding the above, volunteers will have the ability to decide what – if any – adjustments they'd like to make to how these talk page notices appear on mobile talk pages where DiscussionTools are enabled.
2. In line with the above, we're going make volunteers aware of the capacity they have to adjust how these talk page notices are styled/appear by announcing this change:
   • In Tech/News [i]
   • On the Talk pages project/Mobile project page. See: https://w.wiki/5ogE .

i. Potential language for Tech/News announcement; please adjust as you see fit: "On wikis where mobile DiscussionTools are enabled (see list), volunteers will soon have the ability to customize how talk page notices appear. See T312309 for more details.

In T312309#8309970, @ppelberg wrote:

i. Potential language for Tech/News announcement; please adjust as you see fit: "On wikis where mobile DiscussionTools are enabled (see list), volunteers will soon have the ability to customize how talk page notices appear. See T312309 for more details.

Question1: What exactly will editors be able to customize? That isn't clear (to me) in this proposed-wording, or task's-description, or the links.
Question2: When should it be included? (If Monday's edition, we need final-wording for the entry within ~24hours when it will be frozen for translation)
Thanks!

In T312309#8315397, @Quiddity wrote:

In T312309#8309970, @ppelberg wrote:

i. Potential language for Tech/News announcement; please adjust as you see fit: "On wikis where mobile DiscussionTools are enabled (see list), volunteers will soon have the ability to customize how talk page notices appear. See T312309 for more details.

Question1: What exactly will editors be able to customize? That isn't clear (to me) in this proposed-wording, or task's-description, or the links.

Great spot, @Quiddity! Volunteers will be able to customize how the page notices that can sometimes appear on talk pages will be styled for people. viewing them on mobile devices. [i]

Question2: When should it be included? (If Monday's edition, we need final-wording for the entry within ~24hours when it will be frozen for translation)
Thanks!

We're flexible! Including this announcement in the Tech/News that will go out the week of 17-Oct or 24-Oct both work for us. Whichever is easiest for y'all.

i. Please let me know if this wording is still too ambiguous and I'll ask a member of the Editing Engineering Team to offer more technical language.

In T312309#8317441, @ppelberg wrote:

Great spot, @Quiddity! Volunteers will be able to customize how the page notices that can sometimes appear on talk pages will be styled for people. viewing them on mobile devices. [i]
[...]
i. Please let me know if this wording is still too ambiguous and I'll ask a member of the Editing Engineering Team to offer more technical language.

@ppelberg More technical details would be great, please and thanks! I'll postpone/plan the Tech News entry for the 24-Oct week, so that we can get this right, and perhaps update any onwiki docs as needed, too. :)
To be clear, and offer my interpretations, I'm uncertain whether editors are being informed that
(A) they will soon be able to style:

• All instances (i.e. site-wide only) of the string ℹ Learn more about this page.
  • Individual instances of the string ℹ Learn more about this page. (e.g. Unique styling on the page w:en:talk:Homeopathy?)
• All instances (i.e. site-wide only) of the box that appears when someone clicks the new string.
  • Individual instances of the box that appears […]
• The contents within the box. (IIUC it's usually {{Tmbox}} content, but it likely varies at some wikis)
• combinations of the above.
• something else entirely!

(B) Where and How they would style [A]'s answer. (Plus, perhaps linking to an example, in the onwiki-docs?)
Thanks!

We are just referring to the fact that things like tmbox could have their stylesheets modified (via TemplateStyles) to render better on mobile/narrow devices. This could be done using a selector (.skin-minerva or mw-mf) or a viewport width media query.

1. Content & links - Is there anything we could link to (docs onwiki? or example-diffs in the Description here?), in order to explain this context?

I.e. I think this would be a good entry, but it needs a _target for the "LINK"

On wikis where mobile DiscussionTools are enabled (see list), editors will soon be able to customize how talk page notices appear. You can now add mobile-specific CSS to standard talkpage-header templates. See [docs/examples] at [LINK]. [ 1 ]

2. Timing - Do you want this announced either
   • ahead-of-time (in either the "Changes this week" section or the "Future changes" section), or
     • Editors would need to remember to check back later.
   • only once it is available. (When will it be available?).
     • Editors would be able to experiment/implement changes immediately.

I suggest the latter, if there's not an implicit/explicit request for pre-deployment feedback.

In T312309#8323156, @Esanders wrote:

We are just referring to the fact that things like tmbox could have their stylesheets modified (via TemplateStyles) to render better on mobile/narrow devices. This could be done using a selector (.skin-minerva or mw-mf) or a viewport width media query.

Selecting by skin or MobileFrontend is generally an anti pattern as there are more skins than Minerva on MobileFrontend to support on narrow devices (Monobook, Timeless, and maybe in some future Vector 2022). I have done a chunk of work on this in the past few years as a result of using Timeless and finding problem children. I would explicitly recommend a media query here, with an "if you really need to workaround some style being added by those specific environments" type of reference to the other selectors that might indicate something is in a mobile context. Regardless of course, I'd recommend a page documenting that, possibly with some see also link to existing recommendations. (Or perhaps just modify that page?)

Coincidentally, on English Wikipedia, tmboxes (and other Module:Message boxes) now display at full width below 720px and have since a few months. I expect other wikis to follow but I don't know how many have been actively working on removing manual uses of the relevant classes to enable TemplateStyles (and remove styles from Common.css/Mobile.css). (Representative tracking of the effort that took a solid chunk of time; you can see the numbers going down in the page history mostly as a result of work on this account and the IznoRepeat account.)

On English Wikipedia, from a tmbox-control view, dealing with the images left/right inside .tmbox-image(right) are probably the only other things that could be worked on for mobile display presentation. I've been blocked on weariness grounds on working on those since I think that should be part of converting things away from tables to flex first and I know I'm going to find more problem children. From a per-template view, we can probably work on supporting .hide-when-compact in tmbox or similar, but that will of course require modifications in the same way it was required for .ambox things several years ago, and I'm not sure of the best way to do that since it's not quite the same use case as .ambox was since tmbox won't have a modal like MobileFrontend provides. (Gadgets like TheDJ's responsive gadget are enabled by it, so it might be valuable regardless.)

@Quiddity Based on what @Izno has said above, I think something like:

On wikis where mobile DiscussionTools are enabled (see list), we will soon be showing talk page notices with full styling. To customize the layout of talk pages boxes on narrow mobile devices you can use media queries, example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Module:Message_box/tmbox.css

That seems good to me! Thanks.
What about the timing? (cf. #2 in T312309#8323341 above)

Change 841493 merged by jenkins-bot:

[mediawiki/skins/MinervaNeue@master] Disable "page issues" feature when DiscussionTools is handling talk page

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/841493

Change 836256 merged by jenkins-bot:

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@master] Add button to reveal lede section on mobile

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/836256

Known issues:

• When the lede section contains reply buttons, you can still use them from the popup, which mostly works but it's buggy in funny ways. I'm not sure what we should do about it. What if we just displayed the lede section normally, like in articles, if it contained any comments?
• Table of contents is always hidden together with the lede section (proposed replacement: T321618 / T322628)

Added to next week's Tech News in the "Future changes" section. Please edit within ~22 hours if any tweaks are needed.

The interface looks good to me. However, there are some issues with the way it behaves for the special case: when a talk page has a lede section that contains Reply buttons as @matmarex mentioned below:

In T312309#8388224, @matmarex wrote:

Known issues:

• When the lede section contains reply buttons, you can still use them from the popup, which mostly works but it's buggy in funny ways. I'm not sure what we should do about it. What if we just displayed the lede section normally, like in articles, if it contained any comments?
• Table of contents is always hidden together with the lede section (proposed replacement: T321618 / T322628)

The issues are:

1. When you click on the Reply link from within this new pop-up, it doesn't scroll all the way down to the bottom of the pop-up where the Reply tool has opened.

2. Once you post a reply from within this pop-up, it doesn't show the newly posted comment in the same session unless you refresh the page and click on ℹ Learn more about this page and re-open this pop-up.

3. Also after posting a comment from within this pop-up, the Reply tool doesn't open the next time. If you click on it, it throws the following JS error:

Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read properties of null (reading 'ownerDocument')

Next steps

• @ppelberg to file a new ticket for the issue @matmarex raised in T312309#8388224 and that @Ryasmeen described in more detail in T312309#8394540: "When the lede section contains reply buttons, you can still use them from the popup, which mostly works but it's buggy in funny ways...

In T312309#8388434, @Quiddity wrote:

Added to next week's Tech News in the "Future changes" section. Please edit within ~22 hours if any tweaks are needed.

The language you drafted looked accurate and clear [i], @Quiddity – thank you for making this happen..

Meta: I'm sorry you didn't hear back from us until after-the-fact. Going forward, I'll be sure to share feedback about announcement language before Tech/News rolls out.

i. Wikis where mobile DiscussionTools are enabled (these ones) will soon use full CSS styling to display any templates that are placed at the top of talk pages. To adapt these “talk page boxes” for narrow mobile devices you can use media queries, such as in this example. [4]

@ppelberg Appreciated!
I should note that an editor was confused by the initial language we drafted above, so after discussion on the talkpage they helped to clarify the final version that was sent. :-)

In T312309#8401014, @Quiddity wrote:

@ppelberg Appreciated!
I should note that an editor was confused by the initial language we drafted above, so after discussion on the talkpage they helped to clarify the final version that was sent. :-)

Gotcha, ok! Seeing the delta between the language we drafted and what ended up being easier for people to understand is helpful for next time.

In T312309#8397195, @ppelberg wrote:

Next steps

• @ppelberg to file a new ticket for the issue @matmarex raised in T312309#8388224 and that @Ryasmeen described in more detail in T312309#8394540: "When the lede section contains reply buttons, you can still use them from the popup, which mostly works but it's buggy in funny ways...

Filed T324139

Test wiki on Patch demo by ESanders (WMF) using patch(es) linked to this task was deleted:

https://patchdemo.wmflabs.org/wikis/91b554c5d1/w/