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1Joycepa
I want to do something different with this particular thread--more reflective on the more "serious" books I read. Not exactly sure what that means yet, but I won't be reviewing or discussing my usual here--no Civil War and no mystery/thriller/procedural. Thats for another place.
2janemarieprice
Good to have you. I have your 75 thread starred - you always seem to have something interesting that I didn't know about before.
4Joycepa
Glad to see you two!
I don't know why, but for some reason on the 75 book group I feel pressured to get reviews off. Nobody's pushing me--just me! :-)
But I am planning a whole lot more serious reading this year--mostly like you, Tracy, trying to clean up what I already have on my shelf. I am also going to be somewhat experimental in what I read. I haven't done much risk-taking because I have no access to a library and have to buy every single book I read, paying just as much or sometimes more than the purchase price to bring a hard copy book into the country. so in deference to my pocketbook, I have played it fairly safe, sticking to authors I know or books that have been recommended here on LT by people whose tastes are similar, books that seem like they would "fit".
This year, I intend to be somewhat reckless with a certain percentage of my book budget, and those are the books I want to talk about here.
I don't know why, but for some reason on the 75 book group I feel pressured to get reviews off. Nobody's pushing me--just me! :-)
But I am planning a whole lot more serious reading this year--mostly like you, Tracy, trying to clean up what I already have on my shelf. I am also going to be somewhat experimental in what I read. I haven't done much risk-taking because I have no access to a library and have to buy every single book I read, paying just as much or sometimes more than the purchase price to bring a hard copy book into the country. so in deference to my pocketbook, I have played it fairly safe, sticking to authors I know or books that have been recommended here on LT by people whose tastes are similar, books that seem like they would "fit".
This year, I intend to be somewhat reckless with a certain percentage of my book budget, and those are the books I want to talk about here.
5Joycepa
1. Mario Vargas Llosa
I've read two of his books before, The Feast of the Goat about the last days of Trujillo i the Dominican Repulic, and The War of the End of the World, which is an epic novel based on the true story of the young Brasilian republic's battle with the fundamentalist Catholics settlement of Canudos in the interior or sertão of northeast Brasil. I've been meaning to read more of his works, and was spurred to do so by the award of the Nobel Prize last year.
So, I'm reading Death in the Andes.
As a book--as literature, I find it excellent, given the literary devices he is using to explore two stories side by side by interweaving them. I'm enjoying it thoroughly.
But what really intrigues me is more of the political aspect.
Unlike American writers, Latin American writers overwhelmingly write or have written politically charged books. they might write fiction, they might write fiction based on recent history (The Feast of the Goat just being one of many, many examples), they might write historical fiction (Isabel Allende is one as is Vargas Llosa). What they pretty much have in common is a left-wing orientation.
What is surprising in this book is that that most certainly is not the case. Vargas Llosa wrote about the 80s, when the Sendero Luminosa--Shining Path--a Marxist group, was fighting in rebellion against the central government of Peru. No one in their right minds could defend this group or any other like it. What comes to mind today is FARC, the rebel group in Columbia that these days is just fighting to stay in existence, and like many others, running drugs to fund their organization.
But what is intriguing to me so far is that Vargas Llosa is absolutely silent if not mildly favorable towards the Peruvian government, while his portrayal of the Serenderos is totally condemnatory.
In the end, the book is NOT about politics, although you can't escape that, but about the people caught up in such struggles. And in the end, that is the only real story to be told, I guess.
I've read two of his books before, The Feast of the Goat about the last days of Trujillo i the Dominican Repulic, and The War of the End of the World, which is an epic novel based on the true story of the young Brasilian republic's battle with the fundamentalist Catholics settlement of Canudos in the interior or sertão of northeast Brasil. I've been meaning to read more of his works, and was spurred to do so by the award of the Nobel Prize last year.
So, I'm reading Death in the Andes.
As a book--as literature, I find it excellent, given the literary devices he is using to explore two stories side by side by interweaving them. I'm enjoying it thoroughly.
But what really intrigues me is more of the political aspect.
Unlike American writers, Latin American writers overwhelmingly write or have written politically charged books. they might write fiction, they might write fiction based on recent history (The Feast of the Goat just being one of many, many examples), they might write historical fiction (Isabel Allende is one as is Vargas Llosa). What they pretty much have in common is a left-wing orientation.
What is surprising in this book is that that most certainly is not the case. Vargas Llosa wrote about the 80s, when the Sendero Luminosa--Shining Path--a Marxist group, was fighting in rebellion against the central government of Peru. No one in their right minds could defend this group or any other like it. What comes to mind today is FARC, the rebel group in Columbia that these days is just fighting to stay in existence, and like many others, running drugs to fund their organization.
But what is intriguing to me so far is that Vargas Llosa is absolutely silent if not mildly favorable towards the Peruvian government, while his portrayal of the Serenderos is totally condemnatory.
In the end, the book is NOT about politics, although you can't escape that, but about the people caught up in such struggles. And in the end, that is the only real story to be told, I guess.
6Joycepa
This is taken from laurie King's blog:
Yesterday morning, news reached me that the woman who had picked me from a pile of obscurity had died. 92 year-old Ruth Cavin, the legendary Ruth, who started her career at the age of sixty and overnight seized the heart of the publishing industry; whose eye went to the essence of a book's strengths—and weaknesses; who held court at conferences by claiming a table at the bar, cigarette and drink to hand, while attendees came and paid homage; who made her writers feel loved even as her editorial pencil left them bleeding.
Ruth, publishing's grandmother, the kind of woman you just knew had A History, the kind of woman who would toss off a remark that made you do a double take, because she looked far too innocent to have said that. The kind of woman who could be a lady and have a wicked sense of humor.
The kind of woman we need more of, and now have one less of.
Blessings, Ruth. I can just hear that great laugh of yours, when St. Peter grins at you from the pearly gates and says, "Of course you can smoke here, for God's sake! Would you like a drink as well? And not to hurry you, but once you're settled in, we've got all these great young writers…"
Yesterday morning, news reached me that the woman who had picked me from a pile of obscurity had died. 92 year-old Ruth Cavin, the legendary Ruth, who started her career at the age of sixty and overnight seized the heart of the publishing industry; whose eye went to the essence of a book's strengths—and weaknesses; who held court at conferences by claiming a table at the bar, cigarette and drink to hand, while attendees came and paid homage; who made her writers feel loved even as her editorial pencil left them bleeding.
Ruth, publishing's grandmother, the kind of woman you just knew had A History, the kind of woman who would toss off a remark that made you do a double take, because she looked far too innocent to have said that. The kind of woman who could be a lady and have a wicked sense of humor.
The kind of woman we need more of, and now have one less of.
Blessings, Ruth. I can just hear that great laugh of yours, when St. Peter grins at you from the pearly gates and says, "Of course you can smoke here, for God's sake! Would you like a drink as well? And not to hurry you, but once you're settled in, we've got all these great young writers…"
8Joycepa
I had never even heard of her before. Laurie King posted this on her blog today. What do you know of her?
9cabegley
She was a mystery editor. I met her a few times through work (my company publishes a couple of mystery magazines). She seemed to know everyone.
10Joycepa
From King's description, she certainly appeared to be one of those "larger-than-life" characters.
11Joycepa
9. Death in the Andes
Mario Vargas Llosa
Corporal Lituma and Guard Tomás Carreño have been stuck in a post high in the Andes in the village of Naccos, where a road is being built. Three men from the camp has disappeared, including a mute Tomás brought with him when he reported to the post. At first Lituma fears the terruchos, a terrorist guerrillas of the Sendero Luminosa (Shining Path), a Marxist style rebel group that has been operating in the area, brutally killing “enemies of the people”. But no one in the camp wants to talk about what happened. There are two ambiguous camp members, Dionisio, a cantinero (cantina owner) and his wife, Doña Adriana--and that should be a tipoff as to what direction a good part of the story will take.
But there are several stories woven into one. Tomás, at night, tells the story of his love for Mercedes, a prostitute he “saved” from a drug lord. The narrative is so interwoven, past with present, that the reader is right there with Lituma’s and Carreño’s present comments while the story is told in flashback style. This device works brilliantly, not only for the love story but later on, as the main story--what really did happen to the three men--takes an ominous turn, and the story of Doña Adriana and Dionisio unfolds.
Over all this hovers the ancient spirits of the Peruvian Andes, the apus in Qechuan, who are not terribly pleasant deities, and only gradually do we learn to understand their role in life. Pishtacos--a sort of Peruvian vampire somewhat akin to Tony Hellerman’s Navajo ghost walkers--appear. Lituma oscillates wildly between modern cynicism and complete belief in these ancient Andean beliefs.
Based on real events--the years of the Sendero Luminosa rebellion--this beautifully written story relates a clash between indigenous folk culture and attempts to modernize an area that has resisted outsiders for a thousand years. It is a disturbing tale.
Highly recommended.
This is a disturbing book. I finished it last night, and while I read another book--finished up Mansfield Park, from another galaxy if ever there was one--I wound up dreaming about Vargas Llosa's book--more like uneasy, disturbing images all though my sleep.
There are some interesting parallels in the book, and because I don't know a thing about Andean beliefs and myths, I have no idea of what Vargas Llosa has written is at all based in fact. That two of the characters are named Dionisio and Ariadna is no accident. Are there parallel myths with the equivalent Greek ones, which were certainly fertility ones? I don't know.
In any event, this is a powerful book, extremely well written particularly with the literary devices he uses, but it is brutal and disturbing.
Mario Vargas Llosa
Corporal Lituma and Guard Tomás Carreño have been stuck in a post high in the Andes in the village of Naccos, where a road is being built. Three men from the camp has disappeared, including a mute Tomás brought with him when he reported to the post. At first Lituma fears the terruchos, a terrorist guerrillas of the Sendero Luminosa (Shining Path), a Marxist style rebel group that has been operating in the area, brutally killing “enemies of the people”. But no one in the camp wants to talk about what happened. There are two ambiguous camp members, Dionisio, a cantinero (cantina owner) and his wife, Doña Adriana--and that should be a tipoff as to what direction a good part of the story will take.
But there are several stories woven into one. Tomás, at night, tells the story of his love for Mercedes, a prostitute he “saved” from a drug lord. The narrative is so interwoven, past with present, that the reader is right there with Lituma’s and Carreño’s present comments while the story is told in flashback style. This device works brilliantly, not only for the love story but later on, as the main story--what really did happen to the three men--takes an ominous turn, and the story of Doña Adriana and Dionisio unfolds.
Over all this hovers the ancient spirits of the Peruvian Andes, the apus in Qechuan, who are not terribly pleasant deities, and only gradually do we learn to understand their role in life. Pishtacos--a sort of Peruvian vampire somewhat akin to Tony Hellerman’s Navajo ghost walkers--appear. Lituma oscillates wildly between modern cynicism and complete belief in these ancient Andean beliefs.
Based on real events--the years of the Sendero Luminosa rebellion--this beautifully written story relates a clash between indigenous folk culture and attempts to modernize an area that has resisted outsiders for a thousand years. It is a disturbing tale.
Highly recommended.
This is a disturbing book. I finished it last night, and while I read another book--finished up Mansfield Park, from another galaxy if ever there was one--I wound up dreaming about Vargas Llosa's book--more like uneasy, disturbing images all though my sleep.
There are some interesting parallels in the book, and because I don't know a thing about Andean beliefs and myths, I have no idea of what Vargas Llosa has written is at all based in fact. That two of the characters are named Dionisio and Ariadna is no accident. Are there parallel myths with the equivalent Greek ones, which were certainly fertility ones? I don't know.
In any event, this is a powerful book, extremely well written particularly with the literary devices he uses, but it is brutal and disturbing.
12fannyprice
>11 Joycepa:, Sounds pretty great, Joyce. Books that make enough of an impression to invade one's dreams are fantastic.
13Joycepa
#12: Well, I have to say that I would have preferred a good night's sleep! I'm pretty bushed this morning. But the book is worth it.
14janemarieprice
11 - Great review!
15wildbill
I don't remember a book getting into my dreams but really fine literature has a way of putting me into the reality created by the author. When I was reading War and Peace I would put it down after a few hours and then have to take a little time to readjust to the present.
It sounds like a terrific book. I really should look for something by the author.
It sounds like a terrific book. I really should look for something by the author.
16Joycepa
Bill, one of his best books is The War of the End of the World. It's about the massacre at Canudos, Brasil, in the late 19th century. It's historically accurate and marvelously written. Vargas Llosa traveled the country, which I know fairly well further north, and researched it thoroughly. You can read a first-hand account account by Euclides da Cunha, Rebellion in the Backlands or Os Sertões, which really has some nice, important cultural information as a background to what happened. The interior of the northeast--the sertão--is NOT like the coastal regions. Da Cunha was a journalist who was present at some of the action.
The Feast of the Goat is also good, but IMO, nowhere near so good as the Brasilian book or the one I jsut finished.
The Feast of the Goat is also good, but IMO, nowhere near so good as the Brasilian book or the one I jsut finished.
17kidzdoc
Superb review of Death in the Andes, Joyce. I have The War of the End of the World on deck for next month.
18rebeccanyc
I loved both Death in the Andes and The War of the End of the World, which is my favorite Vargas Llosa. I did buy Backlands: The Canudos Campaign, the title Penguin gave to its recent release, but I haven't read it yet. I think one of the many things Vargas Llosa excels at is portraying the differences among regions.
Edited to correct touchstone.
Edited to correct touchstone.
19Joycepa
What fascinates me about Vargas Llosa is his politics. He used to be a leftist in his youth, but a few years ago ran for President of Peru for a center-right party. Most unusual, to put it mildly, for a Latin American intellectual.
20JanetinLondon
Is there a biography of Vargas Llosa around? He seems to have had such an interesting life.
22JanetinLondon
Right, I should have thought of that. Just call me too old!
24RidgewayGirl
And since everything on the internet is absolutely true, it's the best place to find out about controversial people.
25Joycepa
#24: I do appreciate a cynic! Oops, sorry, a realist. LOL
Well, and you know that everything in books is true, also. :-)
One nice thing about the Internet is that you can usually find all the different opinions cheaply, rather than having to buy several books.
ETA: First, Vargas Llosa is not American so who cares. Second, where's Peru? Third, he's not a sports celebrity nor an actor--all he does is write books so who cares.
Therefore, given who usually writes the hysteria and craziness found on the Internet, you're more likely to find factual information about someone like Vagas Llosa than, say Ronaldinho (a Brasilian soccer star).
Well, and you know that everything in books is true, also. :-)
One nice thing about the Internet is that you can usually find all the different opinions cheaply, rather than having to buy several books.
ETA: First, Vargas Llosa is not American so who cares. Second, where's Peru? Third, he's not a sports celebrity nor an actor--all he does is write books so who cares.
Therefore, given who usually writes the hysteria and craziness found on the Internet, you're more likely to find factual information about someone like Vagas Llosa than, say Ronaldinho (a Brasilian soccer star).
26Joycepa
The First World War in Italy
I'm reading a history of the Italian front in WW1. Because my father taught me a good deal of Italian history, I know that to really understand what happened, you have to know what happened during the Risorgimento, Italy's war for independence, which occurred in 1860. I also think that A Soldier of the Great War is one of the finest books I've ever read, and that deals with the subject.
However, there's another book that is among my very favorites: The Leopard, by Giuseppe di Lampedusa. It is set in exactly that period of time--1860--in Sicily and is told from thepoint of view of the Prince of Salina, who is fictional, but is based on Di Lampedusa's great-great grandfather.
I love Helprin's book--BUT he is American (I'm pretty sure) and writes like one. it's wonderful--I'm on what has to be my 4th re-read--but it is still not Italian.
The Leopard, on the other hand, is genuinely Italian and authentic Sicilian--which is NOT the same as mainland Italy. I just finished it for--I don't know--the 4th, 5th re-read, and what struck me this time was the tone. There is a fatalism, a melancholy, in the Sicilian character that does not come through well in books written by non-Italians.
It is a remarkable history in that Di Lampedusa, who wrote the book in 1957, wrote it from his vantage point in time, having lived through 2 world wars, and of course was able to confirm or deny the impressions or convictions of his main characters. But he does so without interfering with the story, which is told from (primarily) the Prince's point of view.
Always after reading this book, I watch the film version, starring Bert Lancaster in an absolutely stunning performance. He himself said it was the finest of his career, and I believe him. If you get the DVD, watch the Italian version, which is longer and better than the one released for American theaters.
So now on to A Soldier of the Great War.
ETA: This was never meant to be a review--I've already done one. But in talking about one aspect of the book, I didn't say that it is really about Sicilian society, that of the nobility--and the reaction to the rise of the middle class, the unification of Italy, and the cahnges that occurred mid-19th century.
I'm reading a history of the Italian front in WW1. Because my father taught me a good deal of Italian history, I know that to really understand what happened, you have to know what happened during the Risorgimento, Italy's war for independence, which occurred in 1860. I also think that A Soldier of the Great War is one of the finest books I've ever read, and that deals with the subject.
However, there's another book that is among my very favorites: The Leopard, by Giuseppe di Lampedusa. It is set in exactly that period of time--1860--in Sicily and is told from thepoint of view of the Prince of Salina, who is fictional, but is based on Di Lampedusa's great-great grandfather.
I love Helprin's book--BUT he is American (I'm pretty sure) and writes like one. it's wonderful--I'm on what has to be my 4th re-read--but it is still not Italian.
The Leopard, on the other hand, is genuinely Italian and authentic Sicilian--which is NOT the same as mainland Italy. I just finished it for--I don't know--the 4th, 5th re-read, and what struck me this time was the tone. There is a fatalism, a melancholy, in the Sicilian character that does not come through well in books written by non-Italians.
It is a remarkable history in that Di Lampedusa, who wrote the book in 1957, wrote it from his vantage point in time, having lived through 2 world wars, and of course was able to confirm or deny the impressions or convictions of his main characters. But he does so without interfering with the story, which is told from (primarily) the Prince's point of view.
Always after reading this book, I watch the film version, starring Bert Lancaster in an absolutely stunning performance. He himself said it was the finest of his career, and I believe him. If you get the DVD, watch the Italian version, which is longer and better than the one released for American theaters.
So now on to A Soldier of the Great War.
ETA: This was never meant to be a review--I've already done one. But in talking about one aspect of the book, I didn't say that it is really about Sicilian society, that of the nobility--and the reaction to the rise of the middle class, the unification of Italy, and the cahnges that occurred mid-19th century.
27Chatterbox
Are you reading The White War, by any chance? I've got that on my library watchlist, though with some other "chunksters" from the library sitting at home and waiting to be read, it may be a while before I request it...
28Joycepa
#27: Yes, I'm reading The White War. But have suspended it for a short time until I get through the initial parts of A Soldier of the Great War.
29LisaCurcio
Hi Joyce!
I read The White War last year. Written from the point of view of an Englishman, it also suffers from a lack of understanding of the Italian mentality and experience, especially that of the peasantry who were the biggest source of fodder for the Italian war effort. That being said, it is well researched, well written and well presented. It did take me a long time to get through it. Some times I just could not stand to read more about the stupidity of those in command and the unnecessary suffering of the soldiers. I will be interested in your comments when you read it.
I read The White War last year. Written from the point of view of an Englishman, it also suffers from a lack of understanding of the Italian mentality and experience, especially that of the peasantry who were the biggest source of fodder for the Italian war effort. That being said, it is well researched, well written and well presented. It did take me a long time to get through it. Some times I just could not stand to read more about the stupidity of those in command and the unnecessary suffering of the soldiers. I will be interested in your comments when you read it.
30Joycepa
Lisa, how wonderful to hear from you!
I'm glad to get your take on The White War. I'm still in pre-war with Alessandro Giuliani but Helprin puts him at a diplomatic dinner just before the war, in a conversation with the French and Austrian ambassadors along with a captain in the Italian Army that does encapsulate the thinking of the major powers just before the war. Everyone thought Italy would go to war with Germany, NOT Austria.
As for the military mentality: I think the real reason I read military history is to convince myself that people can indeed be that stupid. Don't think it was limited to the Italian High Command or just that war. Throughout recorded history, in every country in every war--and no one has yet figured out that war is the most idiotic, least productive, almost always unnecessary activity the human race can indulge in, and that it attracts some of the least intelligent members of every country.
But the bands play, the politicians rant, the flags wave, the people cheer and off they go.....
As soon as Alessandro finds himself at the front, I'll be commenting on the two books.
I can't remember--I'm fairly sure we've talked about this before--have you seen the film version of The Leopard? I watched it again yesterday, and again was utterly enchanted. I must be REALLY getting old--Claudia Cardinale didn't make me want to gag, and I wound up more or less enduring Alain Delon Tancredi. He's so French, Lisa--so French.
ETA: One other thing I have never seen mentioned, except in Thompson's book: the effect of late unification into a nation on Italy. You always read about that effect on Germany--how paranoid the country became, the drive for (late) colonies, how it was an aspect of Germany's militarism and entry into WWI, etc., etc.
Until The White War, I've never seen Italy discussed in the same way. Yet Italy unified late. The Risorgimento culminated in 1861 BUT the Papal States and other sections of Italy (maybe the Veneto) were not incorporated into Italy until the 1880s, I believe. The effect on Italy was the same as on Germany--hypernationalism.
I'm glad to get your take on The White War. I'm still in pre-war with Alessandro Giuliani but Helprin puts him at a diplomatic dinner just before the war, in a conversation with the French and Austrian ambassadors along with a captain in the Italian Army that does encapsulate the thinking of the major powers just before the war. Everyone thought Italy would go to war with Germany, NOT Austria.
As for the military mentality: I think the real reason I read military history is to convince myself that people can indeed be that stupid. Don't think it was limited to the Italian High Command or just that war. Throughout recorded history, in every country in every war--and no one has yet figured out that war is the most idiotic, least productive, almost always unnecessary activity the human race can indulge in, and that it attracts some of the least intelligent members of every country.
But the bands play, the politicians rant, the flags wave, the people cheer and off they go.....
As soon as Alessandro finds himself at the front, I'll be commenting on the two books.
I can't remember--I'm fairly sure we've talked about this before--have you seen the film version of The Leopard? I watched it again yesterday, and again was utterly enchanted. I must be REALLY getting old--Claudia Cardinale didn't make me want to gag, and I wound up more or less enduring Alain Delon Tancredi. He's so French, Lisa--so French.
ETA: One other thing I have never seen mentioned, except in Thompson's book: the effect of late unification into a nation on Italy. You always read about that effect on Germany--how paranoid the country became, the drive for (late) colonies, how it was an aspect of Germany's militarism and entry into WWI, etc., etc.
Until The White War, I've never seen Italy discussed in the same way. Yet Italy unified late. The Risorgimento culminated in 1861 BUT the Papal States and other sections of Italy (maybe the Veneto) were not incorporated into Italy until the 1880s, I believe. The effect on Italy was the same as on Germany--hypernationalism.
31LisaCurcio
Joyce,
You have mentioned the film version of The Leopard before, but I have not watched it. I just never watch things. But for you, I am going to try. We have Netflix, and I can get it.
I realized I have Soldier of the Great War, so I took it off the shelf and will start reading it. It will be intriguing to read it in light of The White War.
Modern wars with which I have any familiarity--other than WWII when there was a nut trying to and beginning to succeed in taking over the western world--seem to me to be about money and personal power. And it is not the money and personal power of the average folks. Unfortunately, the average folks go on about life, as one would expect, and those interested in money and power are able to control what happens. I remember a history teacher in high school who subscribed to the theory that most wars are the result of economic concerns. Simplistic, but with truth to it.
You have mentioned the film version of The Leopard before, but I have not watched it. I just never watch things. But for you, I am going to try. We have Netflix, and I can get it.
I realized I have Soldier of the Great War, so I took it off the shelf and will start reading it. It will be intriguing to read it in light of The White War.
Modern wars with which I have any familiarity--other than WWII when there was a nut trying to and beginning to succeed in taking over the western world--seem to me to be about money and personal power. And it is not the money and personal power of the average folks. Unfortunately, the average folks go on about life, as one would expect, and those interested in money and power are able to control what happens. I remember a history teacher in high school who subscribed to the theory that most wars are the result of economic concerns. Simplistic, but with truth to it.
32Joycepa
Oh I'm with you and your history teacher! What bothers me is the enthusiasm with which the average folks allow themselves to be led into war, those who are allowed any choice whatsoever. That's what's frightening.
Lisa, see if you can get the Criterion collection version of The Leopard--which, for all I know, may be the only one around! But make sure, if you can, to get the version in Italian, NOT the English voice-over one (although you do get Lancaster's voice), which is shorter and not as good.
I'm really looking forward to your take on Helprin's book.
Lisa, see if you can get the Criterion collection version of The Leopard--which, for all I know, may be the only one around! But make sure, if you can, to get the version in Italian, NOT the English voice-over one (although you do get Lancaster's voice), which is shorter and not as good.
I'm really looking forward to your take on Helprin's book.
33deebee1
Very interesting conversation you've been having here, joyce.
On what you say about Italy's unification resulting in hypernationalism that is similar to what took place in Germany: Interestingly, this is mentioned in a book I'm now working my way through slowly, Shlomo Sand's The Invention of the Jewish People published in 2009, translated into English in 2010). In the first chapter where he gives a sweeping view of the rise of nationalism in Europe in the late 19th and early 20th century, he in fact uses the example of Italy as a contrast to Germany. While both countries exhibited some similarities, the former's nationalism eventually took on an inclusive character while the latter...well, we know what happened. Let me quote a couple of paragraphs...
(p. 51) Italy's unification came late, paralleling that of Germany, and, as in Germany, the weak middle class did not accelerate its nationalization. In both countries movements arose some time before actual unification, and in both it was the monarchies, rather than bourgeois strata with mass support, that created the states. Yet in Germany it was the ethnic, or ethnobiological, version of nationalism that triumphed, while in Italy by the end of the 19th century the political citizenship had won.
The difficulty in understanding this contrast can be further highlighted by comparing the later movements - German National Socialism and Italian fascism. Both were strongly nationalistic, and among their various projects was popular unification, which had not been fully accomplished by the monarchies. Both movements were authoritarian, both viewed the nation as a collective greater than the sum of its parts, and both despised Western individualism. But National Socialism adopted the ethnobiological heritage* on which it had been nurtured from the start, whereas Italian fascism continued to draw, at least until 1938, on the inclusive political nationalism of Italy's legendary founders, Giuseppe Mazzini and Giuseppe Garibaldi. German speakers in northern Italy, Jews in the urban centers, and Croatians annexed by war were all perceived as parts of the Italian nation, or future members of it.
He attempts to explain why civil-political nationalism succeeded in Italy at an early stage by saying
A possible, if inadequate, explanation for the relative restraint of ethnicism in the consolidation of Italian identity could be the tremendous weight of the papacy and the Catholic universalism that it imbued in all the strata from this the Italian bureaucracy arose. Perhaps also the clearly political myth of the ancient Roman republic and empire helped immunize this unusual civil identity; moreover, the marked differences betwen northern and southern Italians could have prevented a dubious ethnic nationalism. (p.59)
* myths about an ancient homogeneous origin (p.49)
I've not seen the film version but I love The Leopard, the book. As a rule, I never reread an entire book but I would make an exception for this.
On what you say about Italy's unification resulting in hypernationalism that is similar to what took place in Germany: Interestingly, this is mentioned in a book I'm now working my way through slowly, Shlomo Sand's The Invention of the Jewish People published in 2009, translated into English in 2010). In the first chapter where he gives a sweeping view of the rise of nationalism in Europe in the late 19th and early 20th century, he in fact uses the example of Italy as a contrast to Germany. While both countries exhibited some similarities, the former's nationalism eventually took on an inclusive character while the latter...well, we know what happened. Let me quote a couple of paragraphs...
(p. 51) Italy's unification came late, paralleling that of Germany, and, as in Germany, the weak middle class did not accelerate its nationalization. In both countries movements arose some time before actual unification, and in both it was the monarchies, rather than bourgeois strata with mass support, that created the states. Yet in Germany it was the ethnic, or ethnobiological, version of nationalism that triumphed, while in Italy by the end of the 19th century the political citizenship had won.
The difficulty in understanding this contrast can be further highlighted by comparing the later movements - German National Socialism and Italian fascism. Both were strongly nationalistic, and among their various projects was popular unification, which had not been fully accomplished by the monarchies. Both movements were authoritarian, both viewed the nation as a collective greater than the sum of its parts, and both despised Western individualism. But National Socialism adopted the ethnobiological heritage* on which it had been nurtured from the start, whereas Italian fascism continued to draw, at least until 1938, on the inclusive political nationalism of Italy's legendary founders, Giuseppe Mazzini and Giuseppe Garibaldi. German speakers in northern Italy, Jews in the urban centers, and Croatians annexed by war were all perceived as parts of the Italian nation, or future members of it.
He attempts to explain why civil-political nationalism succeeded in Italy at an early stage by saying
A possible, if inadequate, explanation for the relative restraint of ethnicism in the consolidation of Italian identity could be the tremendous weight of the papacy and the Catholic universalism that it imbued in all the strata from this the Italian bureaucracy arose. Perhaps also the clearly political myth of the ancient Roman republic and empire helped immunize this unusual civil identity; moreover, the marked differences betwen northern and southern Italians could have prevented a dubious ethnic nationalism. (p.59)
* myths about an ancient homogeneous origin (p.49)
I've not seen the film version but I love The Leopard, the book. As a rule, I never reread an entire book but I would make an exception for this.
34dchaikin
Enjoying the conversation. Fascinating excerpts deebee1.
Joycepa - I read a soldier of the great war maybe 5 years ago. It was a book left me confused as I couldn't put my finger on an overall theme or point. You're comments above are quite interesting. I'm looking forward to hearing more about it here.
Joycepa - I read a soldier of the great war maybe 5 years ago. It was a book left me confused as I couldn't put my finger on an overall theme or point. You're comments above are quite interesting. I'm looking forward to hearing more about it here.
35Joycepa
#33: deebee, I am really grateful to you for these excerpts, because they are the first I've seen on the subject, and quite illuminating, from my perspective. The book sounds like one I will want to read and I will so mark it. Please, if there are other comments from the book you would like to share here, do so. This thread is one I hope will be a discussion thread more than a list of books read.
As an Italian Catholic, I am slightly (*snort*) more skeptical about the papacy's role in Italy, and I think The Leopard does a beautiful job of illustrating the Church's reactionary ideas during the Risorgimento and much afterwards. I never thought about the tensions between North and south, but it's very true. Again, I think that the prince (in The Leopard, especially in his conversation with Chevalley, describes this beautifully.
As with any great book, I think you get more or different things out of it on a reread. I never get tired of it--I reread it about every year or so.
If you have not seen the film, you have missed one of the great adaptations of a classic book. Once a year I usually find some reason to rave about it, and this seems to be the season. Lancaster IS the Prince of Salina. Exposition is always difficult in film, but Lancaster's rendition of the speeches, especially the one I've mentioned, is absorbing, not boring at all.
I wish I had a nickel, even in these days, for every time I've pushed both book and film. It would buy me several cups of coffee here, anyway. :-) I know I am probably boring everyone silly on the topic but it's so little known and deserves such a wider audience.
#34: Interesting, your take on soldier of the great war. It could very well be that I'm greatly influenced by his view of the Italian participation in WWI and that's why I love it so. I think part of the point was to illuminate an ignored part of history, the Italian front.
For me, also, Alessandro is someone who lives in a state of exaltation, even in the war, because of his sensitivity to beauty wherever he finds it. It isn't often that the protagonist of a serious novel is a professor of Aesthetics.
Also, one thing I noticed maybe the 2nd time I read it and strikes me more each time is the importance of birds in the story. I am such a literal-minded--a linear analytical thinker--that I don't dare try to interpret the symbolism (if it exists, even!) but it is striking when and how birds appear in the story. But they do, particularly swallows.
I'm finally at the point right now where Alessandro is in the war, taking part in one of the battles of the Isonzo River. Time to go back to The White War and catch up.
Thank you one and all for your comments, and I look forward to more!
As an Italian Catholic, I am slightly (*snort*) more skeptical about the papacy's role in Italy, and I think The Leopard does a beautiful job of illustrating the Church's reactionary ideas during the Risorgimento and much afterwards. I never thought about the tensions between North and south, but it's very true. Again, I think that the prince (in The Leopard, especially in his conversation with Chevalley, describes this beautifully.
As with any great book, I think you get more or different things out of it on a reread. I never get tired of it--I reread it about every year or so.
If you have not seen the film, you have missed one of the great adaptations of a classic book. Once a year I usually find some reason to rave about it, and this seems to be the season. Lancaster IS the Prince of Salina. Exposition is always difficult in film, but Lancaster's rendition of the speeches, especially the one I've mentioned, is absorbing, not boring at all.
I wish I had a nickel, even in these days, for every time I've pushed both book and film. It would buy me several cups of coffee here, anyway. :-) I know I am probably boring everyone silly on the topic but it's so little known and deserves such a wider audience.
#34: Interesting, your take on soldier of the great war. It could very well be that I'm greatly influenced by his view of the Italian participation in WWI and that's why I love it so. I think part of the point was to illuminate an ignored part of history, the Italian front.
For me, also, Alessandro is someone who lives in a state of exaltation, even in the war, because of his sensitivity to beauty wherever he finds it. It isn't often that the protagonist of a serious novel is a professor of Aesthetics.
Also, one thing I noticed maybe the 2nd time I read it and strikes me more each time is the importance of birds in the story. I am such a literal-minded--a linear analytical thinker--that I don't dare try to interpret the symbolism (if it exists, even!) but it is striking when and how birds appear in the story. But they do, particularly swallows.
I'm finally at the point right now where Alessandro is in the war, taking part in one of the battles of the Isonzo River. Time to go back to The White War and catch up.
Thank you one and all for your comments, and I look forward to more!
36deebee1
Sand's book is a very worthy read, one of those which should reach the widest audience possible. It is surprisingly very accessible for such an intractable as well as a scholarly subject. I hope that you get your hands on a copy, joyce. I would be thrilled to talk about it more.
This morning (2-3 pages for my breakfast read) I got to the section on Politics and Archeology, where he explains the use of archeology to corroborate biblical tradition, i.e. the excavations during the 1950s and 1960s exposed only those findings that matched the biblical text.(p.114) This section struck me particularly as just a couple of months ago, I saw on Aljazeera channel a very interesting new documentary related to this. It showed a group of Palestinian men, most of them relatively young, who are in the business of digging relics and antiquities (from just about anywhere in Palestine, although they wouldn't say where) and selling them. They said that the demand is so high, not so much from shop owners (passing off looted goods as tourist souvenirs) but from contacts who were buying on behalf of Jewish museums. All artifacts which were related in one way or another to Jewish tradition are always sold quickly. The group's problem is how and where to sell all other relics which depicted otherwise -- they had plenty which showed Arab-related tradition or those from other cultures. Use of certain symbols or particular designs, for example in burial objects or earthenware easily showed its Jewish or non-Jewish tradition. It goes without saying that the activity is illegal.
(I've just done an internet search and saw that it's available on YouTube though I'm having trouble accessing it now. It's entitled Looting the Holy Land.)
Interestingly, David Ben-Gurion, Israel's 1st prime minister had this to say about it
When I find a contradiction between the Bible and external sources archeological or epigraphic findings, I am not obliged to accept the alien source. Could they not have mistaken or distorted the facts? From a purely scientific standpoint I'm free to accept the testimony of the Bible, even if challenged by an external source, provided the testimony contains no inner contradictions and is not obviously flawed. (p. 51 Sand quoting Ben Gurion, Biblical Reflections, 60-1)
Now if only somebody can help me make sense of that.
No film adaptation of The Leopard for me this Sunday night, but I will be watching another great Italian film, Rocco and His Brothers by Luchino Visconti, played by a young Alain Delon. Looking forward to a delicious treat.
This morning (2-3 pages for my breakfast read) I got to the section on Politics and Archeology, where he explains the use of archeology to corroborate biblical tradition, i.e. the excavations during the 1950s and 1960s exposed only those findings that matched the biblical text.(p.114) This section struck me particularly as just a couple of months ago, I saw on Aljazeera channel a very interesting new documentary related to this. It showed a group of Palestinian men, most of them relatively young, who are in the business of digging relics and antiquities (from just about anywhere in Palestine, although they wouldn't say where) and selling them. They said that the demand is so high, not so much from shop owners (passing off looted goods as tourist souvenirs) but from contacts who were buying on behalf of Jewish museums. All artifacts which were related in one way or another to Jewish tradition are always sold quickly. The group's problem is how and where to sell all other relics which depicted otherwise -- they had plenty which showed Arab-related tradition or those from other cultures. Use of certain symbols or particular designs, for example in burial objects or earthenware easily showed its Jewish or non-Jewish tradition. It goes without saying that the activity is illegal.
(I've just done an internet search and saw that it's available on YouTube though I'm having trouble accessing it now. It's entitled Looting the Holy Land.)
Interestingly, David Ben-Gurion, Israel's 1st prime minister had this to say about it
When I find a contradiction between the Bible and external sources archeological or epigraphic findings, I am not obliged to accept the alien source. Could they not have mistaken or distorted the facts? From a purely scientific standpoint I'm free to accept the testimony of the Bible, even if challenged by an external source, provided the testimony contains no inner contradictions and is not obviously flawed. (p. 51 Sand quoting Ben Gurion, Biblical Reflections, 60-1)
Now if only somebody can help me make sense of that.
No film adaptation of The Leopard for me this Sunday night, but I will be watching another great Italian film, Rocco and His Brothers by Luchino Visconti, played by a young Alain Delon. Looking forward to a delicious treat.
37Joycepa
deebee: Visconti was the director of The Leopard and clearly Delon was a favorite actor of his.
Well, I've bought Sand's book because I can get it on Kindle. It looks to be incredibly controversial, so I'm looking forward to reading it. Looks like reviewers either love it or hate it.
Well, I've bought Sand's book because I can get it on Kindle. It looks to be incredibly controversial, so I'm looking forward to reading it. Looks like reviewers either love it or hate it.
38wildbill
I'm a little late but the discussion on the difference between German and Italian nationalism is very interesting.
I only feel qualified to comment on Germany. My take is that there it was not so much a unification as Prussia taking over the rest of Germany. First they knocked Austria out of the German Confederation then after their defeat of France the Prussian King was crowned Emperor of Germany in the Hall of Mirrors.
Prussian militarism then came front and center along with the "ethnobiological heritage" or what I would call the Volkisch ideology. Bismarck blended the two with his philosophy of " Blood and Iron."
I only feel qualified to comment on Germany. My take is that there it was not so much a unification as Prussia taking over the rest of Germany. First they knocked Austria out of the German Confederation then after their defeat of France the Prussian King was crowned Emperor of Germany in the Hall of Mirrors.
Prussian militarism then came front and center along with the "ethnobiological heritage" or what I would call the Volkisch ideology. Bismarck blended the two with his philosophy of " Blood and Iron."
39Joycepa
Bill, I think the term is being used in the sense of making one nation out of many independent entities, NOT in the sense that there was anything collegial about it. Nobody really had much of a say. Nobody voted to join a union. Bismark just ran over them.
40LisaCurcio
Joyce, I just started Soldier of the Great War and already there are references to things I read in White War. I think I will appreciate the history I learned from reading the latter.
I have A World Undone: The Story of the Great War waiting for me, too, so I think this will all meld well.
Thanks for getting me off on another tangent!
I have A World Undone: The Story of the Great War waiting for me, too, so I think this will all meld well.
Thanks for getting me off on another tangent!
41Joycepa
Lisa: great! I think that reading The White War will greatly enhance your enjoyment of Helprin. I'm finding the former to be really terrific on explaining the complicated politics of the leadup to the war. It's really expanding my knowledge of the Italian motives. All I ever heard about was Italia irridentia. I had no idea about the borders issue or the expansion fantasies of the Italian government.
Let me know what you think of A World Undone.
Let me know what you think of A World Undone.
42kidzdoc
#20: Is there a biography of Vargas Llosa around? He seems to have had such an interesting life.
I'm not aware of any biography of MVL that has been published in English. He has written at least one memoir, A Fish in the Water, which I have read and would recommend. It describes his adolescence and young adulthood, along with his failed presidential campaign in 1990.
(Sorry for the late post; I'm slowly catching up on threads.)
I'm not aware of any biography of MVL that has been published in English. He has written at least one memoir, A Fish in the Water, which I have read and would recommend. It describes his adolescence and young adulthood, along with his failed presidential campaign in 1990.
(Sorry for the late post; I'm slowly catching up on threads.)
43Joycepa
But, Darryl, always welcome, and thanks for the comments about his memoir. I'd be interested in reading what he had to say about his presidential campaign.
44rebeccanyc
Wow, I didn't know MVL had written a memoir. Went to look for it and discovered it's out of print, so I just ordered it from ABE Books.
46JanetinLondon
#42 - Thanks, Darryl, I will look for that one.
47rebeccanyc
Amazon was asking too much money when I checked . . .
49rachbxl
Great thread, Joycepa!
I've enjoyed several other books by Vargas Llosa over the years, and Death in the Andes has slowly been making its way up my TBR pile since I bought it a couple of years ago; I think you might have convinced me to whizz it up to the top.
Your comments about the effects on Italy and Germany of their becoming states relatively late struck a chord with me since, like deebee, I'm reading a non-fiction book about Germany at the moment, Germania: A Personal History of the Germans Ancient and Modern by Simon Winder, and that's what's really struck me so far. Italy I know (something) about, but I'm ashamed to say that until today I hadn't realised that the same goes for Germany. Fascinating. (I've just followed the touchstone to The White War - I have a professional interest in Italy so in theory it's right up my street...but I'm rubbish at non-fiction. There's just so much fiction out there to be read!)
I've enjoyed several other books by Vargas Llosa over the years, and Death in the Andes has slowly been making its way up my TBR pile since I bought it a couple of years ago; I think you might have convinced me to whizz it up to the top.
Your comments about the effects on Italy and Germany of their becoming states relatively late struck a chord with me since, like deebee, I'm reading a non-fiction book about Germany at the moment, Germania: A Personal History of the Germans Ancient and Modern by Simon Winder, and that's what's really struck me so far. Italy I know (something) about, but I'm ashamed to say that until today I hadn't realised that the same goes for Germany. Fascinating. (I've just followed the touchstone to The White War - I have a professional interest in Italy so in theory it's right up my street...but I'm rubbish at non-fiction. There's just so much fiction out there to be read!)
50Joycepa
#49: I'm slightly over 1/4 of the way through The White War and like other well-written history, IMO, it's far, far better than fiction! It reads like a novel--Thompson is a really good writer. Give it a go--I think you'll be pleasantly surprised, especially if you have an interest in Italy (which is?).
BTW, my name is Joyce. Whenever I need to come up with a username for any reason, my mind goes completely blank, I panic, and all I can usually do is stick, desperately, with this one--which is simply the first 2 letters of the name of the country in which I live.
BTW, my name is Joyce. Whenever I need to come up with a username for any reason, my mind goes completely blank, I panic, and all I can usually do is stick, desperately, with this one--which is simply the first 2 letters of the name of the country in which I live.
51rachbxl
Ha, same as me! My first name's Rachel but lots of people call me Rach, and bxl is the airport code for Brussels, where I live. I can never think of anything else on the spur of the moment either.
My interest in Italy? I'm an interpreter for an international institution and Italian is one of my working languages, so in theory everything about Italy (whether in Italian or not) is of interest to me. The sad truth is that my Italian's been sadly neglected over the last couple of years, but you've got me intrigued...
My interest in Italy? I'm an interpreter for an international institution and Italian is one of my working languages, so in theory everything about Italy (whether in Italian or not) is of interest to me. The sad truth is that my Italian's been sadly neglected over the last couple of years, but you've got me intrigued...
52Joycepa
Lisa: So far, I love The White War and am racing along in it. I have some observations, though, and I wonder what you think:
I've just finished the section on internments, both Italian and Austrian. At times, I was hard-pressed to follow who was doing what to whom--was it the Austrians or the Italians? do you remember having any trouble with that section? Other than that, I thought it was absorbing and well-researched.
Peter: Useful maps are non-existent. The ones to which you provided a link can be found in MUCH better condition for printing on Wikipedia. I printed out 3, and they're adequate for following the battles, so far. I've just reached early 1916.
I've just finished the section on internments, both Italian and Austrian. At times, I was hard-pressed to follow who was doing what to whom--was it the Austrians or the Italians? do you remember having any trouble with that section? Other than that, I thought it was absorbing and well-researched.
Peter: Useful maps are non-existent. The ones to which you provided a link can be found in MUCH better condition for printing on Wikipedia. I printed out 3, and they're adequate for following the battles, so far. I've just reached early 1916.
53wildbill
#50 Joyce I second your opinion about the quality of well written history. I just finished two Bruce Catton books on the Civil War and IMO they are very good literature.
54Joycepa
Catton wrote beautiful books. There are times when his prose is almost lyrical, almost poetry, in certain passages. I remember being struck by that so long ago. I can't think of anyone who matches his style. Shelby Foote has his own, which I love, but Catton really is in a class by himself.
55LisaCurcio
>52 Joycepa: Joyce,--yes, I do remember that being a difficult section to follow. I am not sure I ever figured it out. Racing? I definitely did not race through that book!
57fannyprice
Enjoying the ww1 conversation over here!
58Joycepa
And one of these days, I'm even going to finish the book! Gad, I've been up to my neck and ears in alligators here.
59juliette07
~40 Lisa and Joyce. There is a group read of A World Undone beginning on February 15th over at Le Salon. I am becoming immersed in it - with maps, photos and lists all labelled for easy access. Despite being a non specialist I am finding Meyer's work really accessible so far and would highly recommend it.
60wildbill
#40, #59--I have read A World Undone and thought it was an excellent history of the war. It has an analysis of the military strategy and shows that the war was not just sitting in trenches for four years. In addition to the military history the author has short background chapters on many different aspects of the history of the period. Good reading.
Joyce, every time I see you talking about The White War it reminds me of a three volume set on the origins of WWI written by Luigi Albertini with the assistance of Luciano Magrini titled The Origins of the War of 1914(the touchstone picked up the wrong title). Albertini was an Italian politician and journalist who was anti-facist and was ousted from his profession by Mussolini. They worked on the book from 1928 to 1940 interviewing many of the protagonists in the war including the Kaiser. It is the best authority on the origins of the war according to John Keegan and others. It was first published in Italian shortly after Albertini's death in 1941. I'm not saying you would want to read it but it begins with the Berlin Conference of 1875 and includes more Italian history on the period before the war than any other source that I know of.
Joyce, every time I see you talking about The White War it reminds me of a three volume set on the origins of WWI written by Luigi Albertini with the assistance of Luciano Magrini titled The Origins of the War of 1914(the touchstone picked up the wrong title). Albertini was an Italian politician and journalist who was anti-facist and was ousted from his profession by Mussolini. They worked on the book from 1928 to 1940 interviewing many of the protagonists in the war including the Kaiser. It is the best authority on the origins of the war according to John Keegan and others. It was first published in Italian shortly after Albertini's death in 1941. I'm not saying you would want to read it but it begins with the Berlin Conference of 1875 and includes more Italian history on the period before the war than any other source that I know of.
61Joycepa
OK you all, you've convinced me--but 1st I have to get the book! Which will take a minimum of two weeks to get it here. Best order it NOW. (and away she goes....)
Done!
Done!
62LisaCurcio
I bought A World Undone because of the group read in Le Salon, but I find I am not very good at group reads. I think I will start it, in any event, and follow along with peoples' comments. Who knows if I will keep up. The nice thing about the non-fiction reads is that they cannot be ruined by "spoilers". :-)
Joyce, I have almost finished A Soldier of the Great War. I am going to withhold comment for now.
Joyce, I have almost finished A Soldier of the Great War. I am going to withhold comment for now.
63Joycepa
#62: I'm the same way about group reads, Lisa (and New Year's Resolutions and just about any sort of resolution). The book will be shipped from Amazon probably tomorrow and I'll get it within 2 weeks. I'll mention it here.
OK, no fair! You're going to make me wait for your comments on Soldier??? Nasty, nasty, Lisa--I wouldn't have thought it of you but just goes to show how low people can sink!
#60: Bill, many thanks for the reference to The Origins of the War of 1914. I'll look into it, definitely.
But right now, I'm so swamped with "projects" around here that I'm not doing much serious reading--just fluff at night; I have been ripping through some far-less-than-lightweight mystery books that are sheer fun and don't require any thought from me.
However, inevitably I return, these days covered with paint.
OK, no fair! You're going to make me wait for your comments on Soldier??? Nasty, nasty, Lisa--I wouldn't have thought it of you but just goes to show how low people can sink!
#60: Bill, many thanks for the reference to The Origins of the War of 1914. I'll look into it, definitely.
But right now, I'm so swamped with "projects" around here that I'm not doing much serious reading--just fluff at night; I have been ripping through some far-less-than-lightweight mystery books that are sheer fun and don't require any thought from me.
However, inevitably I return, these days covered with paint.
64Mr.Durick
I have also picked up A World Undone and hope to participate in the discussion. I think it may have been the multiple mentions here rather than anything I saw in Le Salon... that drew my attention to it.
Robert
Robert
65Joycepa
#64: That'd be great, Robert. There are quite a few knowledgeable people here who have mentioned it. Me, I'm just a joyce-come-lately!
Don't let me stop anyone--comment away on the book.
Don't let me stop anyone--comment away on the book.
66LisaCurcio
Joyce--Soldier . . . .
Flashes of brilliance and pages of tedium. I started out thinking it was a great book--the concept, the writing, the story. But as I read, I cared less and less about Alessandro and found the story more and more improbable. I think Helprin wanted to convey the horror of the war and its impact on the people, but he didn't.
I am looking forward to A World Undone. Then I think I will follow up with Paris 1919: Six Months That Changed the World. Then I think I will switch to another topic!
Flashes of brilliance and pages of tedium. I started out thinking it was a great book--the concept, the writing, the story. But as I read, I cared less and less about Alessandro and found the story more and more improbable. I think Helprin wanted to convey the horror of the war and its impact on the people, but he didn't.
I am looking forward to A World Undone. Then I think I will follow up with Paris 1919: Six Months That Changed the World. Then I think I will switch to another topic!
67Joycepa
#66 Lisa: Re Soldier: Wow, certainly not my take on the book, which remains one of my Top Five of all time! For me, Helprin really portrays the insanity of war and its horror, especially in the battle on the Isonzo which must have been Caporetto. I love the lyricism of his writing. But--different strokes for different folks.
I'm going to read A world Undone, then consider Bill's suggestion. But at this point I'm not sure I want to get immersed in yet another war! I still have some Civil War books on the shelves to read.
I'm going to read A world Undone, then consider Bill's suggestion. But at this point I'm not sure I want to get immersed in yet another war! I still have some Civil War books on the shelves to read.
68LisaCurcio
Joyce-
Soldier--something about it was so very self-centered. I came away feeling that every character was terribly one-dimensional and Alessandro was at best two-dimensional. As you say, different strokes . . . .
I have started A World Undone. It is my kind of book in that it combines the social/cultural history with a bit of battle description. Those of us with the high school or college survey (me) background will find it very enlightening.
Soldier--something about it was so very self-centered. I came away feeling that every character was terribly one-dimensional and Alessandro was at best two-dimensional. As you say, different strokes . . . .
I have started A World Undone. It is my kind of book in that it combines the social/cultural history with a bit of battle description. Those of us with the high school or college survey (me) background will find it very enlightening.
69Joycepa
Lisa:
What got to me about Alessandro was that he was so alive. He lived a life of exaltation or perhaps I should say, in exaltation. Every time I read the book, it strikes me again. He vibrates within the beauty he experiences around him, and he experiences it in everything, even in the horrors of war.
I have to say that I don't agree about the characters. Alessandro definitely grows during the book and as for many of the others--not sure how much you can ask of people whose main aim at that point is to survive, so they certainly are self-centered. One of my favorites will always be Orfeo the Dwarf, the real reason behind the insanity and stupidity of war.
My copy of A World Undone is on the way--should get it within a week or so. But I haven't been doing any heavy reading at all--too tired at night from too much to do here. Today is my first day off in weeks, so maybe I'll be recovered enough tonight to get back to The White War and others.
What got to me about Alessandro was that he was so alive. He lived a life of exaltation or perhaps I should say, in exaltation. Every time I read the book, it strikes me again. He vibrates within the beauty he experiences around him, and he experiences it in everything, even in the horrors of war.
I have to say that I don't agree about the characters. Alessandro definitely grows during the book and as for many of the others--not sure how much you can ask of people whose main aim at that point is to survive, so they certainly are self-centered. One of my favorites will always be Orfeo the Dwarf, the real reason behind the insanity and stupidity of war.
My copy of A World Undone is on the way--should get it within a week or so. But I haven't been doing any heavy reading at all--too tired at night from too much to do here. Today is my first day off in weeks, so maybe I'll be recovered enough tonight to get back to The White War and others.
