How do you solve North Korea?

Below, NBC lays out scary military scenarios if North Korea really does attack South Korea, Japan, or the US: http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/04/17573693-what-happens-if-north-kor...

Neither China nor South Korea want the North to implode, sending refugees streaming into their countries. China and the US have been bribing North Korea to behave, a short-term strategy at best as NK keeps returning for more. South Korea has been trying to normalize relations with the North and to help it improve lot of its people by common initiatives, but the North has blocked that. One can be forgiven for being tempted to let NK to go, but its citizens are in a terrible plight, eating grass and bark during the 1995 famine with little kids just fading away.

Is new North Korean leader Kim Jong Un miscalculating, being pushed around internally (by his aunt and uncle?), reacting to China's reduced support?

How do you solve a problem like North Korea?
Ignore it?
Punish it?
Hug it out?
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/02/17571557-how-do-you-solve-a-proble...

I'd definitely take this article more seriously if I could get the nuns from Sound of Music out of my head. Thanks a LOT margd :-)

China finally invades North Korea, incorporating it into Greater China, much like Tibet. The U.S. wags its finger at China publically, meanwhile sending huge payouts for resolving the stand-off.

The South Koreans are viewing this as just more grandstanding. North Korea hasn't attacked South Korea at all, just talked a lot about it.

>2 ljbryant: Maybe earworms are yet another of NK's secret weapons? :)

>3 BruceCoulson: China's certainly part of the equation, but it values North Korea as a buffer--it's not looking for a major rehabilitation and re-education project? Its increasing support for sanctions probably indicates that North Korea is losing its buffer value? Interesting that it hasn't been able to encourage more amenable people in NK's leadership.

>4 RidgewayGirl: Hopefully just grandstanding on NK's part, but WWI was brought on by a lesser constellation of events and allegiances... So many opportunities for miscalculation, e.g., US sets up anti-ballistic systems so NK begins to believe it's safe to now launch one?

"Kim Jong-un seems to see himself as a military daredevil and heroic leader. In 2010, although he had not yet taken full control of his nation (his father was still alive, though ailing), Kim oversaw the sinking of the South Korean ship, the Cheonan, and the shelling of the South Korean island of Yeongpeong."

Hard to fathom Kim's intentions : http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/hard-to-fathom-kims-intention...

All the experts on North Korea are saying it's just rhetoric. The DPRK hasn't mobilized it's million man army- which would take some time to do- so it's not going to attack the ROK tomorrow. A foreign observer who was in Pyongyang only a few days ago, and was interviewed by the BBC, said the city did not seem braced for war.

But North Korea has taken some disturbing actions recently, such as reopening an enrichment facility and relocating missiles to their east coast (closer to Japan).

I don't think there will be a nuclear attack or invasion of the South. But I would not be surprised if there were some lesser action, similar to the shelling of the South Korean island 2 years ago. That's just a guess. Nobody but Kim Jong Un knows what they will do.

How can this thread be taken seriously if no one deigns to give Mr. Rodman a mention?

Did you hear Christiane Amanpour last night saying at least Rodman did something? She never in her life thought she'd be saying that.

Well MY topic, which HAS "Rodman" in its title!, may be "eclipsed" by a more seriously titled one? But it's okay! And yeah "How DO you solve a problem like Maria er Kim uh UN!"

It's maybe too easy to get oh jokey about this and obviously I can't help myself either but it won't be so much "fun" if the nKs start shelling Seoul say, even without nukes, and if they try for Guam -- can't they say that the missile went "off course"? (So sorry Mr Moto!) Well NOT NOW huh.

Maybe "we" ought to send them a "guy" -- I mean "our" guy; maybe not Bill (Hey I don' intend to become a piece of ash! Pardon? Oh ASH, Bill, yeah, I mean no Bill!) but the formerly ubiquitous Jimmy Carter? He's tan, rested and ready and did a similar mission some twenty years ago (how the time flies!) and though/because he's 88 if something DID happen well we all gotta go eh?

I'll say this for the nKs -- they're "better" than even Ahmadinejad or the late Hugo at grabbing the headlines huh and changing the subject to "ME! WATCH ME!"...

Did Ms. Amanpour say what it was he did? How many rebounds the night he supped with the brass.

I think the "situation" as in "We got a situation here" is getting weirder and weirder and maybe more dangerous than I have allowed re my "tone" above. I'm beginning to lose a sense of the absurd over this in that perhaps a tragedy looms after all?...

It's mystifying. My reaction is normally to face the absurd with a practiced eye--what's really going on behind the absurd facade. So maybe there is a power struggle of some kind within. We always hope that someone as braindamaged as Curtis Lemay is never running a nuclear country, and so far it seems we've managed. But this time they just keep pushing--embassies warned?

Yes I'm puzzled too -- "they" warned the Russians (the old Stalinists deserved a "heads up"?) and Curt LeMay indeed -- his "advice" to Eisenhower and then to Kennedy was to "hit THEM before they hit you"; he was a WWII hero so Eisenhower and K endured him for political reasons but both were often dumbfounded by the things he'd say...

NK is a cartoon version of a communist regime.

Yeah I'd say BUT they're getting less and less "funny" huh...

#15: All regimes (communist or otherwise) aspire to be cartoons.

Someone recently suggested that if you put a blue hat and a red coat on Kim Jr. he looks just like Cartman, from South Park: "Respect my authoritah!"

> 10 Sorry for overlooking Rodman thread: http://www.librarything.com/topic/152117 . I skimmed topics for NK but not carefully enough apparently as Rodman didn't register...

Another Friend of Kim speaks out: "Writing in Cuban state media, former Cuban leader Fidel Castro warned North Korea, a Cuban ally, against nuclear war. He called the situation on the Korean Peninsula 'incredible and absurd'."

"Now that it has demonstrated its technical and scientific advances, we remind it of its duties to other countries who have been great friends and that it would not be just to forget that such a war would affect in a special way more than 70 percent of the world's population."

So that makes three allies of NK (China, Russia, Cuba) advising Kim Jung-un to cool it. As a young man, Castro urged Khruschev to nuke U.S. ...

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Latest-News-Wires/2013/0406/North-Korea-Fidel-Cas...

Thanks for posting that link margd - well I means the last one but actually both of them, Rodman and CSM.

China is starting to lose patience with North Korea, it seems. About time!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-22062589

"We are north Kor-ee if you plee-eze!/We are north Kor-ee if you DON' pleeze!" -- with reference to the great musical comedy in animation, Uncle Walt's "Lady and the Tramp," and its uh "oriental" villains of those turbulent times!...

Kerry says the NKs can't have the bomb. I bet the NKs say Kerry can't have the bomb.

And as long as DekeSolomon is taking LSD, HE can't have the bomb.

Ah! That's what "we" need! Oriental villains like The Good Old Days of Dr Fu Manchu, the Dragon Lady and Chairman Mao! Does young Mr Kim follow "Terry and the Pirates" do you think?...

The latest Iron Man movie will feature the only major Iron Man villain not in a suit of powered armor: the Mandarin.

Conicidence?

So he's a little orange?

I personally think that the leadership of North Korea is getting a bad rap. After all, look at how those under Kim's rule can dance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06bT-FTLqj8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjBRk4DA4rY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkdg3YqkmAI

Swing your comrade, dosey do........

#27

Yellowish orange; the typical 'Yellow Peril' of the 1960s.

There are surely many cases where a natural tendency to distrust your enemies comes into play—when hearing that the State Department says X leads you to consider not-X. But the North Koreans aren't an edge case. They're not some debatable regime, doing right by the poor and whose suppression of free speech can be questioned and overlooked. They're the limit case—the case that answers the question "Is there ANY regime the US thinks is repressive or dangerous that you'd be willing to acknowledge are, in fact, repressive and dangerous?"

It must be difficult for a western-educated scion to go against wishes of an entrenched regime back home, even if his initial inclination is otherwise, e.g., Kim Jong-un, Assad, Mubarek's son, Gaddafi's son. (Michael Corleone? Pope Francis?)

It might be useful to go back to the Korean war, when attacking the south was not necessarily bizarre. The splitting of the country was artificial and a fresh wound. Both north and south were Confucian and agrarian and had imposed on them systems counter to their 'natures'.

2 - thanks a bunch. it's been nine days and I can't stop singing. I think I am losing my mind.

> 33 Darn! The nuns had just piped down...

Reason--and carrots and sticks--prevail (?):

"... In Beijing, Mr. Kerry met with the new president, Xi Jinping, Foreign Minister Wang Yi, Premier Li Keqiang and State Councilor Yang Jiechi."

"Mr. Yang said at a dinner with Mr. Kerry on Saturday night that China was committed to “the denuclearization process on the Korean Peninsula.” But the Chinese state councilor also stressed that the “issue should be handled and resolved peacefully through dialogue and consultation.”"

"To encourage the Chinese to deal with the North Korean nuclear problem, Mr. Kerry said that he had shared “very in-depth” information illustrating the danger of how a nuclear North Korea could promote the proliferation of nuclear arms in Asia and the Middle East."

"Mr. Kerry said his aim was to find a way to revive the goals of the six-party talks on the North’s nuclear program, which have been stalled since 2009 when North Korea withdrew. The talks have included North and South Korea, China, Russia, Japan and the United States."

"He also portrayed cooperation on North Korea as just one element of a “model partnership” the United States hoped to build with China on diplomatic, economic and environmental issues..."

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/14/world/asia/kerry-in-china-seeking-help-on-nort...

#30

There are many repressive regimes throughout the world (unfortunately). North Korea certainly is one of them, and given their current activities, are dangerous (although exactly how dangerous can be debated). Perhaps the most interesting aspect is how little (until recently) NK figured into our 'there are scary people out there!' diatribes, as opposed to Iran.

there are scary people out there

There's little we can do. They already have the bomb.

You wouldn't see this in Iran...

"A child of around 10 sits dying of starvation by the side of the road while just yards away soldiers load enough rice on to trucks to feed families for weeks."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/inside-north-korea-video-photos-1826234

(ETA: The image North Korea tries to project... http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/north-korea-rejects-south-koreas-c...

#36

Actually, there's quite a bit we could do. Although the recent activities of China and Russia may remove any need for action on our part. NK has chosen a course of action that threatens Chinese interests. Perhaps not the wisest course for them.

This is where belligerence from our side comes in—or, more precisely, how preparing for war can (contra Einstein) prevent it. China doesn't mind North Korea being crazy and won't lift a finger against them on such grounds. But they very mind more aircraft carriers, planes and so forth steaming around the western Pacific. The more forces we move to and especially plan to base there, the more China wants the problem solved.

Ditto, incidentally, moves by neighbors. If Japan gets worried enough to talk about big defense increases or going nuclear, China will do what it can.

China hold a large amount of U.S. debt. If war breaks out between NK and the U.S., Chinese finances will be difficult, considering that a NK has a defense pact with China. Not to mention that a lot of goods and services for the U.S. are handled in China; a flow of money that could well be interrupted in the event of a conflict.

So, it's not entirely accurate to say that China doesn't care about NK actions; once the crazy reaches of point of threatening money, China is (as stated) becoming concerned with what's going on.

I'm not sure that belligerence per se is causing the change; but certainly China has little room to object to our preparedness.

>39 timspalding: Actually, Tim, that strategy might backfire. First, because it gives the Kim regime an excuse for its continued belligerence, and secondly, because the only reason China is supporting North Korea is as a 'buffer state'. The more weapons the U.S. moves into South Korea, the more Chinese leaders will value that buffer.

If the U.S. wants to win over China, they should make a promise not to base any troops north of the present ceasefire line, in the event of reunification. And to eventually (say, within a decade after unification) withdraw completely from the Korean peninsula.

I think your second point is important. They don't want American troops in North Korea. But the surest way to avoid that is to prevent North Korea from doing something so stupid. But I agree, the United States could promise something like that, and it would help.

Just as an exercise, imagine an NK in your neighborhood (Cuba?), and a major power, China, with a military like that of the US crawling about the region with allies like Venezuela (Japan), Argentina (Phillipines)...

Of all possibilities, consider the possibility that NK is actually doing China's bidding to call attention to the US in the Chinese 'sphere of influence'

>43 RickHarsch:. I don't think China has any control over N. Korea anymore. In fact, relations between the two countries have cooled since Kim Jung Un came to power. I think China's leaders are starting to see North Korea as an embarrassing problem child. But a collapse in North Korea-- with refugees fleeing into China-- or a united Korea allied with the U.S., with American troops on the Chinese border, are not scenarios that Beijing likes, either.

Well the Chinese provide trade&aid and if they pulled the plug the nK elite would be in bad traces eh. (The "masses" are already "fucked" so what would it matter to them?)

The Chinese are/are becoming "big guys" -- the USSR's successor rival to the great USA eh -- in this world and hence the nKs make them nervous but any US-sK "invasion" as per 1950-51 is verboten (whatever that is in Chinese) and Chairman Mao made that uh "perfectly clear" to Harry Truman huh.

Still, shooting missiles over Japan makes the Japanese "nervous" and the US is also bound to "protect" them too and gee the latest "Boston massacre" knocked the nK out of the terrorist top ten for the moment and on Kim Il Sung's birthday, the "Christmas day" for the Kims' country, which has to be annoying but maybe not -- hey "time out" and let the US REALLY worry after all!

What I would do if I were Obama re north Korea is SEND Kerry or maybe just get the Kid on the phone. Make Un feel "important" and not neglected -- he's a troubled child hmm. At the moment of course the O is preoccupied but then this is NOT the time to "fuck" with the US and the nKs really ought to unlax for now I'd say...

How about this amazing article just out today: Bank of China severs ties with North Korean bank . I find this exciting, am I being fooled into thinking this may be a solution?

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/bank-of-china-severs-ties-with-north-korean-ban...

Dennis Rodman @dennisrodman
I'm calling on the Supreme Leader of North Korea or as I call him "Kim", to do me a solid and cut Kenneth Bae loose.

>47 theoria: 'do me a solid'?! I wonder if that would work on other world leaders:

I'm calling on the Supreme Leader of the U.S. or as I call him "Barry", to do me a solid and stop those nasty drone attacks in northern Pakistan.

I'm calling on the Supreme Leader of Israel, or as I call him "Bibi" to do me a solid and cut out the settlement building. I mean, like, enough already!

What if the next time NK nukes a test, a 10x or 100x test arrives at the same test site?

No harm done to people. The data from the test would be made less meaningful.

North Korean officials looking for medicines for Kim’s obesity-related health problems, Seoul says
HYUNG-JIN KIM | July 29, 2024

...On Monday, the National Intelligence Service, South Korea’s main spy agency, told lawmakers in a closed-door briefing that Kim weighs about 140 kilograms (308 pounds) again and belongs to a high-risk group for certain diseases ... the NIS told lawmakers that Kim has shown symptoms of high blood pressure and diabetes since his early 30s and that he will likely eventually suffer from heart disease if he fails to improve his health.

https://apnews.com/article/north-korea-kim-jong-un-health-obesity-c4e373eeede0c4...

Kim Jong-un is, psychologically, just a little spoiled boy. All he wants is love/respect. I think the solution is to get Mr. tRump to agree to accept the U.S. Ambassadorship to N. Korea. He can visit N. Korea and institute a severe ass-kissing of his buddy Kim, metaphorically or even literally if that's what it takes, and maybe Kim will be more amenable to acting like an adult. As stated, he just wants love and respect. And tRump is on record as stating he loves and admires Kim (No other American has, only tRump).

Ambassador tRump - that's the ticket. I'm surprised no one else has seen this obvious solution to the problem.

It actually kills two birds with one stone. I.e., we get tRump out of the country and far away. He is probably going to flee following his defeat in the Presidential race so why not make some use of him. For once in his life he can achieve something more than existential social failure.